I want to point out just one example.

There's a guy by the name of Michael Lacey who is popular in Tiktok under the name Comrade Sinque [1]. He spent 21 years in prison. It was a much longer sentence. I'm not sure what happened to get him out much earlier.

What was his crime? Felony murder. Sounds bad, right? So what were the details. At age 19 he and a friend burgled a house. The homeowner killed his friend. That was it.

Many Americans don't realize how this works and how insanely unjust it is. It's called the felony murder doctrine and it is unique to the US. It means that if a felony is being commited and if anyone dies then you, as the felon, can be charged with murder regardless of how they died. In states like Alabama, all burglaries are felonies. So if you and a friend break into a house, the police respond and kill your friend, you can get convicted of murder and sentenced to 30-years in prison.

Not a made up example [2].

Anyway, Comrade Sinque is better read than probably at least 95% of Americans. He is thoughtful and intelligent. He wasn't born a criminal (that's 18th century thinking). He's certainly not low IQ (as some would have you believe criminals all are). No, the issue is material conditions. Poverty and a lack of opportunity.

We probably spent about $1 million convicting and incarcerating him for 21 years. This doesn't really seem like a good investment.

[1]: https://www.tiktok.com/@comrade_sinque

[2]: https://apnews.com/article/felony-murder-officer-shooting-al...

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nomel 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Convictions/punishment is also meant to be a deterrent.

That one being: don't rob a house in a state with a castle doctrine where the owner is allowed to fucking kill you. If you first hand help someone get killed, you're at fault. Sounds reasonable.

But, I also wish we had far far more deterrents, and far more deaths, when it comes to robbers.

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Quarrelsome 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Deterrents assume criminals make good decisions though. While deterrents matter for career criminals who have the experience to make good choices about their crimes, I think they're almost entirely ineffective against initial offenders.

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jmyeet 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The uS has 4% of the world's population but 25% of the world's prison population. We have a higher rate of incarceration than, say, Russia or Iran [1].

If deterrants worked, why do these incidents keep happening? Why isn't this the safest country on Earth?

Poverty costs all of us but rather than lifting people out of poverty, we'd rather spend way more on the prison-industrial complex, slavery 2.0 (ie convict leasing) and law enforcement.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...

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nomel 3 days ago | parent [-]

You're putting too much meaning into that data.

Look at the low numbers in Africa. Is it because they elevate their criminals out of poverty? Maybe their police have good relationships with the community? Maybe they're good at re-habilitating convicted criminals in prison? Or maybe it's counseling to heal generational trauma?

Nope. Strong deterrent of immediate mob justice: https://www.dw.com/en/mob-justice-in-africa-why-people-take-...

Obviously, stoning all the criminals isn't the solution, but having society rigidly define acceptable bounds of behavior that get you removed from that society if crossed (temporarily or permanently), isn't unreasonable.

To understand that high number in the US, I think you would have to look at who is in prison, and what they did, to understand. Good luck. They collect the data in a way so you can't do a multivariate analysis, because that would be unethical!

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dullcrisp 3 days ago | parent [-]

That’s a fair point about Africa, but is Europe also contributing another 25%? Or is that also a lawless place?

	▲	nomel 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		I don't know, we would have to look at the data. Again, due to ethical concerns, they don't record or report the data in a way where more meaningful conclusions can be made. I think many many things contribute to the difference in imprisonment. But, federal imprisonment is 42% drug charges [1]. Just looking at that, US has a cartel run country, with a near 20% GDP based on drug trafficking [2], at its poorly controlled border, with a whole continent below that containing exactly zero first world countries, some having > 40% GDP from drug trafficking! I've walked across the Mexican border. I've seen caravans of cars driving across. It's near fiction. Now, try to smuggle some drugs into an inner European country! Or, alternatively, just hop over to Amsterdam to avoid your countries laws. And, we also have the benefit of corporations fueling drug epidemics [3]. Is that imprisonment a deterrent? I didn't look up numbers, but have some useless anecdotal evidence: I knew two drug dealers in high school. They both stopped because their buddies were arrested, and lives ruined. For direct evidence to answer the question "is punishment a deterrent" (I find it hard to believe this is an argument), see California Prop 47 [4]. [1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen... [2] https://english.elpais.com/economy-and-business/2023-09-21/f... [3] https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/attorney-... [4] https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/prop-47-36-califor...

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3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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wat10000 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mostly think the US system is too punitive, but I don’t see a problem here. Someone died because of what he did. He did it deliberately and the death was a foreseeable outcome of what he did. I’m not too upset that he spent two decades in prison as a result.

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red-iron-pine 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

with respect, if I'd spent 21 years in prison with nothing else to do I'd probably read a ton of books, too

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948382828528 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Won't someone think of the burglar on tik tok?