| ▲ | throwup238 2 days ago |
| Welcome to the world of firmware. That’s why RaspberryPi won and pivoted to B2B compute module sales as they managed to leech broad community support for their chips and then turn around and sell it to industry who were tired of garbage BSPs. The reality for actual products is even worse. Qualcomm and Broadcom (even before the PE acquisition) are some of the worst companies to work with imaginable. I’ve had situations where we wasted a month tracking down a bug only for our Qualcomm account manager to admit that the bug was in a peripheral and in their errata already but couldn’t share the whole thing with us, among many other horror stories. I’d rather crawl through a mile of broken glass than have to deal with that again, so I have an extreme aversion to using anything but RPi, as distasteful as that is sometimes. |
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| ▲ | Schlagbohrer 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Ouch. I sympathize, having gone through similar hoops with Renesas. We buy a hardware product from them and try to develop on it but they won't share more than a few superficial datasheets with us. And I know they have way more manuals / datasheets because they'll sometimes drip the info to me when I ask specific questions, but they won't just give us them so we can do it ourselves. This is a common business model sadly where the seller wants the buyer to buy an additional support contract for any actual firmware development. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Which is why Raspberry PIs are more valuable to me than an x86 NUC, even if the prices are similar. There are no ARM NUCs at such prices, and even if there were the GNU/Linux support would be horrible. |
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| ▲ | dspillett 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | With the caveat that I might be slightly out of touch (I have nothing beyond the Pi4/400 and the last x86 mini-box I bought was over a year ago)… IMO the key benefit of a Pi over an x86/a64 box, assuming you aren't using the IO breakouts and such, is power efficiency (particularly at idle-ish). The benefits of the x86/a64 boxes is computing power and being all-in-one (my need was due to my Pi4-based router becoming the bottleneck when my home line was upgraded to ~Gbit, and I wanted something with 2+ built-in NICs rather than relying on USB so didn't even look into the Pi5). Both options beat other SBC based options due to software support, the x86/a64 machines because support is essentially baked in and the rPi by virtue of the Pi foundation and the wider community making great efforts to plug any holes. A Pi range used to win significantly on price (or at least price/performance) too, but that is not the case these days. | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't get how your argument infers from your parents comment. To me it would be the opposite conclusion: stay away from ARM SBCs with proprietary firmware and just go Intel-x86 NUCs if you don't want surprises. And yes, RPI was(is?) a proprietary-FW SBC as the Broadcom VideoCore GPU driver was never open sourced from the start and relied on community efforts for reverse engineering, which the rPI foundation then leveraged to sell their products at a markup to commercial customers after the FOSS community did all the legwork for them for free. Like so long and thanks for all the fish. Meanwhile Intel iGPUs had full linux kernel drivers out of the box. That's why they're great Jellyfin transcoding servers. | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If I don't want surprises!?! I had to throw away, literally, a Gigabyte BRIX, because its firmware did not recognised any distro I throwed at it from internal drives, only if connected externally over USB. The experiements with various kinds of SSD modules, Linux distros, and UEFI booting partitions, end up killing the motherboard in someway due to me manipulating it all the time, whatever. Raspberry PIs are the only NUCs I can buy in something like Conrad Electronic, and be assured it actually works without me going through it as if I had just bough Linux Unleashed in 1995's Summer. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Luckily, the X86 NUC ecosystem is not defined by your unfortunate experience with a Gigabyte BRIX. Exceptions don't define the norm. | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Which physical stores sell X86 NUCs with OEM supported Linux distributions pre-installed? | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | IDK, why does this matter? What if there's no retail stores close to me? I haven't been into a retail electronics store in years, when online ordering and easy returns makes it so much more convenient, especially for cases like yours with the Gigabyte Brix not working properly. So what were you trying to prove with this because I'm confused as you keep own-goaling yourself. The thing is, for such a niche use-cases it's expected it's not gonna have major retailer availability since it's not something the general consumer is gonna be knowledgeable enough for it to sell in high volumes to be wort for retail stores wherever you may live to stock up shelves on NUCs with Linux preinstalled just to cater to your limited demographic who refuses to order online for some reason, is a very tall order and not really a good faith argument for anything. The market for people who are like "ah shit, I need to spontaneously go out to the store and pick up a NUC right fucking now, and it has to have Linux preinstalled, because I can't wait a couple of days till it arrives online or know how to install Linux myself", is really REALLY small. | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It does, because I get to punch someone if it doesn't work, instead of looking hopless to an online form. On a more serious note, how do you want normies to get introduced to the Year of Desktop Linux, outside WebOS LG TVs, Android/Linux and ChromeOS, instead of getting Mac minis and Neos at said stores? I guess it is buying SteamDecks to play Windows games. /s Raspeberry PIs are the few devices that normies can buy with GNU/Linux pre-installed. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Now I'm certain I don't want to deal(even on the internet) with people who consider punching low wage workers in retail sector, as the acceptable resolution for their issues with product defects of manufacturer. Especially given this is what free returns of online orders is good for, makes it even more looney. LE to your reply from below here: Excuse me but a form of expression for what? The spec sheet of that Gigabyte Brix explicitly lists only Windows 11 as the supported OS, not Linux. You tried to install an unsupported OS, and you broke it in the process. What exactly do you expect the retail store workers to do to fix the issue you yourself caused via using the product in a way it wasn't advertised? You can contact the manufacturer for warranty or return it via the online return window, but the fuckup is still on your end and not the issue of retail workers. | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It was a form of expression, and yeah, whatever dude. |
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| ▲ | dspillett 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | How many physical stores sell the alternatives at all? IIRC there is one in Cambridge specifically selling Pi kit and related stuff, but that is about it. | | |
| ▲ | ssl-3 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I almost never shop at Target. It's not near to me, and it's not on my list of destinations when I'm away from home. But I was in Target one day anyway, and they had a Raspberry Pi 3 kit for sale on the shelf. IIRC, it was one of the Google DIY smart speaker kits. I thought that was neat to see. My usual source for Raspberry Pi stuff is Microcenter. That's also not near to me, but it's a viable destination that's worth a trip all on its own. At this Microcenter, they move enough Pi hardware that they don't even have them on the shelves anymore. They're instead stocked at each checkout register, and priced at or below MSRP. They're right there alongside a wide assortment of minimally-packaged house-brand SD cards and USB keys and other geek fodder. It's quick and easy to walk in and grab a couple of spools of printer filament, some 22AWG solid wire for breadboarding, a card of LR44 batteries for the digital calipers, and a Raspberry Pi. (Well, it can be quick. Last time I went, I got sucked into the mechanical keyboard department for an embarrassingly long time.) Anyway, they also have NUC-shaped computers there if someone wants go that direction instead. Just pick one out, pay for it, and take it home. | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I gave a German example. | | |
| ▲ | dspillett 2 days ago | parent [-] | | So “how many” is two. That and the one in Cambridge? | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Greater than the zero for x86 NUCs. | | |
| ▲ | dspillett 2 days ago | parent [-] | | True. But a lot less significant looked at that way, hardly worth stating as a challenge… | | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, the Year of Desktop Linux for normies on x86 NUCs is right around the corner. | | |
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| ▲ | utopiah 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| What's Qualcomm and Broadcom moat? Is it "just" IP or could they be replaced by a slower more expensive equivalent, say FPGA based, relying on open building blocks? |
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| ▲ | throwup238 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s a combination of IP and deep institutional expertise. The 5G standards plus other important protocol documentation, for example, are on the order of fifty thousand pages, built on decades of experience with edge/2g, 3g, and LTE. That’s just the documentation on the protocol, the real secret is in the mixed signal ICs that require custom cell libraries which Qualcomm/Broadcom work with fabs to develop for their own use. The only other company of note in this field is Apple which bought the initial IP from Intel (which bought it from Infineon, another IC manufacturer), so we’re talking about something so technically complex that only the deepest pockets and expertise can make any headway. When Apple bought Intel’s modem IP, over two thousand employees transferred with the deal, to give you an idea of the scale. That’s just the radios, which is their bread and butter. A lot of their other products have similar barriers to entry. As the sibling comment noted, FPGAs aren’t even in the running. Ignoring their power consumption, the biggest FPGAs only have a hundred thousand or so logic elements. While its not easy to map that to number of transistors per se, even a legacy nodes are capable of much more complex designs than you can fit on an cutting edge FPGA. This really makes a difference even at the lower end because you have to get the timing right between all the different parts of your logic, and making everything smaller gives a lot more room for error (its a lot easier to put delay lines than to reconfigure a section of your design to fit closer to another section). | |
| ▲ | Yizahi 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The range of their offerings is immense and I think each product should be evaluated individually to competition. But just as an anecdote from my company - to create a full spectrum DOCSIS signal our HW team used multiple huge FPGA chips, I think it was Altera 10 or something (device is EOS by now) and that only for the DAC (kinda), there were separate CPU, separate 10G switch, separate utility FPGA, separate memory, separate everything. And it had to be glued together with some insane mash of code on top of the FPGA blobs which not always work as expected. All in all it was a ten unit monster which used something like 4000W in steady state and a dozen of industrial coolers at max to cool it off. And today that is replaced with a single relatively tiny in area chip (those old FPGAs were huge) from Broadcom, which does literally everything and complies with newest standard and uses tens of watts of power, and it is passively cooled. It's not quite the correct comparison since arch changed in the meantime, but if someone would build an exact replacement for that older big device using new chips and have the same specs, it would be half as big and use under 1000W or even less. And all software is ready to use without reinventing half of it manually. But yeah, Broadcom's support is slow and opaque. and they will stall any non-major customer for month for almost any request, because they are prioritizing different tasks internally. It's like a drug dealer dependency and there is only one dealer in your town :) . |
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