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BoneShard 3 days ago

I think they don't give a shit about 3D printing, especially in CA. It's not like you're competing with a glock19 type hand gun and cornering this market.

sleepybrett 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Rebels in Myanmar were using various 3d printed guns just after the military coup (famously the FGC-9), which is like a PDW form factor chambered in 9mm. The barrels are metal, and i think the chamber as well, but the whole fire control group i think is all printed and of course all the furniture is plastic as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K1qXxONls4

BoneShard 2 days ago | parent [-]

well, it's not because they shopped around and were like - yeah, we don't like these AK-74s and ar15s, let's just use FGC-9 instead.

sheikhnbake 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

3D gun printing has come a long way in a short amount of time. 3D printed lower receivers can weather several hundred rounds of 7.62 at this point

DennisP 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range.

alterom 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>You can easily go through a couple hundred rounds in one visit to the range.

Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though.

Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds.

This legislation is insanely, horrendously bad and harmful, but "3D printed gun components are useless" isn't a solid argument against it. They're useful enough.

The real arguments, as others said, are:

1. You can achieve much more already without 3D printers

2. The legislation won't achieve its stated objective as any "blueprint detector" DRM will be trivial to circumvent on many levels (hardware, firmware, software)

3. Any semblance of that DRM being required will kill 3D printing as we know it (the text of the law is so broad that merely having a computer without the antigun spyware would be illegal if it means it can drive a 3D printer)

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Range shooting is not what they're trying to legislate though.

It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition, but it's not good enough to actually compete with them.

> Whoever killed that healthcare CEO didn't need a hundred rounds.

Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record. Given his apparent political alignment, he presumably used 3D printed parts for trolling purposes since there was no actual need for him to do so. He could have bought any firearm from any of the places they're ordinarily sold.

alterom 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>It's the thing gun manufacturers are selling to their customer base though. The theory was they were lobbying for this to prevent competition

Does anyone actually believe this? Is there any funds for this theory?

Seems to be too far fetched to be even worth sitting.

>Luigi Mangione didn't have a criminal record

That really isn't the point (he still doesn't have a criminal record, by the way).

The point was that the stated danger of 3D printed guns is their use by criminals for criminal purposes, not economic competition to established gun manufacturers.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent [-]

> The point was that the stated danger of 3D printed guns is their use by criminals for criminal purposes, not economic competition to established gun manufacturers.

I guess the counterpoint is that it's not actually useful to criminals either, so there is no incentive for any non-fool to want laws like this and then all incentive arguments are weak because foolishness can be attributed to anyone.

jim33442 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Luigi Mangione wasn't trying to get caught. Maybe he was worried buying and using a real gun would link him back to the murder.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent [-]

Let's review the three possibilities here.

One, you succeed in never being identified or apprehended. Consequently you, rather than the police, have the gun you used, and you can file off the serial number and throw it into the sea or whatever. They don't know who you are so they never come looking for the gun you no longer have and it's just one of millions that were sold to random people that year.

Two, you get caught before you do the murder. Some cop thinks you look too nervous or you get into a car accident on the way there etc. and they find the gun. Having one without a serial number at this point means you're in trouble when you otherwise wouldn't be. It's a disadvantage.

Three, they catch you in the act or figure out who you are because your face got caught on camera somewhere after you took off your mask etc. At this point it's extremely likely you're going to jail. This is even more likely if the weapon is still in your possession because then they can do forensics on it, and it not having a serial number at that point is once again even worse for you. This is apparently the one that actually happened.

Whereas the theory for it allowing you to get caught would have to be something like, they don't know who you are but they have a list of people who bought a gun (which, depending on the state, they might not even have) so they can look on it to find you. But that's like half the US population and doesn't really narrow it down at all.

There is no criminal benefit in doing it so that leaves the remaining options which are either trolling or stupidity.

some_random 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It comes back the same thing, there is zero evidence that gun manufacturers are lobbying for this while Everytown is very publicly and proudly announcing that they are pushing this exact legislation.

sheikhnbake 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

True. I used to do it regularly.

remarkEon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That makes it useful for a hobbyist, but it is by no means a replacement for a properly manufactured lower.

sheikhnbake 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Depends on what the intended use is. 3DP firearms have proliferated internationally and have been used against conventional militaries. Agreed they aren't a replacement, but practical use cases exist.

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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Supermancho 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Hobbyist or not, this makes it useful for getting guns (and other gear) from other people.

remarkEon 2 days ago | parent [-]

What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm. Even if your nominal intent is just to "finish" a gun with parts you have laying around, it's not going to be something that's consistently reliable.

sheikhnbake 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I mention 7.62 specifically because most folks not familiar with 3D printed firearms are unaware that such a thing is even possible.

9mm 3DP guns have hit the news cycle repeatedly, less so for higher power cartridges. IIRC, there's a .50 BMG project well underway.

remarkEon a day ago | parent [-]

You call these project[s], which I think is very accurate for the higher power cartridges. You sound like you've seen a lot of the videos of 3D printed firearms, and from what I can tell they cluster around 9mm and 5.56. There's probably multiple reasons for that, one of which is that those round sizes are more widely available and cheaper, while another is that it is going to be easier to do than something with higher power. So to maybe simplify my point, the technical challenges and inherent safety issues on 7.62 are higher. Thus, projects they shall remain.

jdougan 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Look up the WW2 FP-45 Liberator. A bad gun you could use to get a better gun. Theoretically you only need to use it once.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

remarkEon 2 days ago | parent [-]

I highly doubt that anyone who 3d prints a lower does so to “use” it (I.e. shoot someone) in order to procure a better firearm.

sheikhnbake 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The FGC-9 was used extensively in Myanmar for that exact purpose. The rebels would set up ambushes with FGC-9's and recover better firearms for future use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9#Users_and_use

jim33442 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I would think they just print multiple guns and switch if one breaks.

Eisenstein 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you not imagine any motives that a person could have for printing a gun where they don't care about long term reliability?

remarkEon 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, I can imagine any number of motives and Rube Goldberg mechanisms for procuring a firearm to service that motive. My point is that if someone who is desperate to get a firearm has to 3D print one they’re going to pick a simple pistol lower. Not something for a rifle that fires a higher power cartridge. Most rifles that fire 7.62 are not in the AR format.

Eisenstein 2 days ago | parent [-]

You don't think someone like Oswald exists in the present day?

remarkEon 2 days ago | parent [-]

They demonstrably do, multiple of them, and none of them used 3D printed weapons.

Eisenstein 2 days ago | parent [-]

So there are people who would have a use for a high powered rifle with limited durability.

> What I'm saying is that no one is going to build a lower in this manner for a firearm chambered in 7.62 and do anything useful/important with it. Maybe the cartridge size here is a distraction, idk, but this isn't a specification that I would consider common and/or useful for 3D printing a firearm.

The fact that no one was caught using such a weapon is irrelevant. You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue.

remarkEon a day ago | parent [-]

>You stated that there are people out there who would use it, so your statement that "no one" would want to is untrue.

Huh? There is no evidence that anyone is using a 3D printed 7.62 weapon system to do crimes. Of the existing evidence, criminals overwhelmingly use conventional firearms. I'm not understanding your point. The would-be and successful assassins in the news the last couple years used standard rifles, ranging from 5.56 to .03-06 in caliber. I think you are assuming that criminals are less sensitive to equipment reliability than they actually are.

Let me put it this way. If 3D printed firearms were such a game changer, they would already be using them at scale. They are not, and these laws are part of a fundamental misunderstanding about how firearms function and how 3D printing technology works.

Eisenstein a day ago | parent [-]

You are arguing against a point I am not defending. I am giving a retort against your statement that you can't imagine why anyone would want a high powered rifle that had a limited reliability window. You admitted that there was a use case for it, and I called that out. That's it. I am not defending nor opposing the ability to 3D print firearms.

remarkEon 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think I actually did admit that, and I think the confusion lies in your assumption that someone who wants to do a crime is willing to accept the reliability issues. Perhaps it's worth pointing out that these reliability issues aren't simply lower n-cycles before failure. The weapon could explode on you on the first shot. The probability of this happening is lower for the less powerful cartridges (as I implied earlier but perhaps should've been more explicit). This concept of a "reliability window" is not the right way to think about this. In other words, if someone handed me a 3D printed 7.62 weapon system I would refuse to fire it, and call the person who made it an idiot.

sheikhnbake 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I stand corrected, the Plastikov V4 has endured 5,000 rounds

webnrrd2k 2 days ago | parent [-]

It looks like a Plastikov uses a lot of metal Kalashnikov parts that you'd need to get from a kit or machine yourself or something, so I don't think it's really fair to call that gun a 3D printed gun. It uses printed parts, but the barrel, trigger, etc... aren't printed.