Sounds like you're referring to some specific examples of poorly implemented apps rather than the concept of SPAs as a whole.

For your example, the point of that div soup is that enables behaviours like row/column drag&drop reordering, inline data editing, realtime data syncing and streaming updates, etc. - there is no way to implement that kind of user experience with just html tables.

There's also huge benefit to being able to depend on clientside state. Especially if you want your apps to scale while keeping infra costs minimal.

I get the frustrations you're talking about, but almost all of them are side effects of solutions to very real UX problems that couldn't be solved in any other way.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that people building SPAs when all they needed was a page showing 10,000 rows of static data isn't a problem. It's just a people problem, not an SPA problem.

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hnlmorg 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> all of them are side effects of solutions to very real UX problems that couldn't be solved in any other way.

Except they had been solved in other ways and the problem was people insisted on using web technologies to emulate those other technologies even when web technologies didn’t support the same primitives. And they chose that path because it was cheaper than using the correct technologies from the outset. And thus a thousand hacks were invented because it’s cheaper than doing things properly.

Then along comes Electron, React Native and so on and so forth. And our hacks continue to proliferate, memory usage be damned.

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friendzis 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> And they chose that path because it was cheaper than using the correct technologies from the outset

No, otherwise they would not need all those hacks. Web stack makes it cheap (fast and easy) to build an MVP, but since the very primitives required to fully implement requirements are not even there, they end up implementing tons of ugly hacks held by duck tape. All because they thought they could iterate fast and cheap.

It's the same story with teams picking any highly dynamic language for an MVP and then implementing half-baked typing on top of it when the project gets out of MVP stage. Otherwise the bug reproduction rate outpaces fixing rate.

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yoz-y 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Having done native and web frontends, they are different.

I prefer the capabilities of native frameworks but I prefer the web box model.

Sizing stuff is native frameworks is nice until it isn’t.

	▲	hnlmorg 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I’ve done both too. And I honestly don’t like the box model. But I will admit I’ve focused more on desktop than mobile app development. And the thing about sizing stuff is it’s a much easier problem for desktop than mobile apps, which are full screen and you have a multitude of screen sizes and orientations.

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phkahler 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> I get the frustrations you're talking about, but almost all of them are side effects of solutions to very real UX problems that couldn't be solved in any other way.

Any other way? Just build a web app with emscripten. You can do anything.

For a while GTK had an HTML5 backend so you could build whole GUI apps for web, but I think it got dropped because nobody used it.

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friendzis 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> rather than the concept of SPAs as a whole.

This is the whole concept of the SPA - make a page behave like multiple pages. The premise itself requires breaking absolutely everything assuming that content is static.

> There's also huge benefit to being able to depend on clientside state. Especially if you want your apps to scale while keeping infra costs minimal.

Um... I'm old enough to remember the initial release of node, where the value proposition was that since you cannot trust client data anyway and have to implement thorough checking both client and server side, why not implement that once.

> I get the frustrations you're talking about, but almost all of them are side effects of solutions to very real UX problems that couldn't be solved in any other way.

Let me introduce you to our lord and savior native app