In stacked diffs systems, the idea is that the base of the stack (once reviewed) can always be merged independently, so you're totally right that like, if you just purely think you can split things up when they shouldn't be split up, that would be bad.

This is the model that the kernel uses, as well as tons of other projects (any Gerrit user, for example), and so it has gotten real-world use and at scale. That said, everyone is also entitled to their preferences :)

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ninkendo 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> This is the model that the kernel uses

Nah.

The kernel uses a mailing list, and a “review” means a mailing list thread. With some nice CLI tools to integrate with git when you want to actually apply the patch (or start a review thread.)

In that world, “[PATCH 2/5]” (or whatever) in the subject title, and a different CC list for each patch, is a nice way to be able to ensure different subsets of the patch series have different discussions. That’s great.

But if you’re going to compare this to a GitHub UI, you have to choose the basis for comparison, because the two are so utterly different. Choosing one aspect (can we make sure discussions are kept separate), and saying “therefore the kernel uses stacked diffs” is a huge misrepresentation of how different GitHub’s approach is.

Because the kernel approach is the platonic ideal of a code review: it’s a simple threaded discussion between stakeholders, centered around a topic (the patch, which is inlined right in the email.) I would wager close zero kernel maintainer actually look at the diffs exclusively via their email client. They probably just check out the changes locally and look at them, and the purpose of the mailing list is to facilitate focused discussion on parts of the change (which is all we really want, in the end.)

GitHub has so thoroughly shit the bed on actually developing a good model of “threaded discussion about a change”, that you have to change the way you think about git’s model to fix how awful GitHub is at allowing review discussion to stay focused. You shouldn’t need to think about stacked diffs and multiple PR’s. You should use git branches as intended, multiple commits representing changes, and a merge meaning “this branch makes it or not.” That GitHub’s UI for discussing subsets of a change is so abysmal, does not mean the model is wrong. It means their discussion system is so abysmal that a mailing list TUI can run circles around it. Fixing this is GitHub’s problem, and doesn’t require any changes to how PR’s should be split up.

If you have a 2500-line PR with 5 500-line commits, GitHub should not require you to split things up further in any way, just to unfuck their discussion system.

Random idea I spent 10 seconds thinking about: let me start a “here’s a thread discussing the UI changes” and add folks to it, and “here’s a thread discussing the backend changes”, and add folks to that. I can then say “let’s not merge this until both threads are green”. You still see the whole change in the UI. (You can click directories to drill into the changes, that solves the “but the diff is too big” issue.) Discussion on a chunk of the diff is scoped to a discussion thread, which you select when sending the message. Thus, all discussion on any part of the diff is still scoped to a “discussion thread” of arbitrary subsets of stakeholders.

None of this needs me to change how I split up my git branches, an entire logical change is still either “merged” or “not-merged” (seriously who cares about the Pyrrhic victory of merging only change 1/N), and if we want to limit scopes of discussion to subsets of a change, we can just… do that.

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steveklabnik 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, I am talking about stacked diffs in general, not this specific implementation on GitHub. That "Patch 2/5" is five stacked diffs, on top of each other. Forges that are stacked-diff native do that same kernel flow, just on the web instead of over email. You can also see this corroborated over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47758251

All of the advantages, like "it’s a simple threaded discussion between stakeholders, centered around a topic", is exactly why people like stacked diffs over PRs.

GitHub is doing "stacked PRs", which is like stacked diffs but more like PRs in the sense that they're stacked branches rather than stacked diffs. I agree that this seems less ideal, but they also are putting it into an existing project, rather than rebuilding everything around it. There's pros and cons to both approaches, but I agree that I'd prefer a native system built for this, personally. I'm still glad they're going to be popularizing the general concept.

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ninkendo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Sorry, I am talking about stacked diffs in general, not this specific implementation on GitHub

My point is that the LKML and what GitHub do is so different that the definition of “stacked diffs in general” can only describe a tiny aspect of each, if you want to call both of their approaches by the same name. From where I sit, the only common element between them is “they offer a way to keep discussion separated.”

If that’s all people are actually complaining about, there are a thousand better ways to “keep discussion separated” that don’t require me to pretend that it’s ok that only a subset of my branch is ok to merge.

In git, a branch is the thing you either merge or don’t. You merge multiple commits at once, or you don’t. It’s a great model. Breaking up the branch into smaller pieces, and giving people the impression it’s ok to merge the first commit but not the rest, just to unfuck the discussion UX, is putting the cart before the horse. I make a branch strictly because I want it to either all merge or none of it merge. It’s the only sensible approach in my book. If a discussion system is so bad that this is unworkable, it means the discussion system is bad, it doesn’t mean the conceptual model of a merge is bad.

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steveklabnik 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> My point is that the LKML and what GitHub do is so different that the definition of “stacked diffs in general” can only describe a tiny aspect of each

That's fine, what I mean is, when we started this convo, I thought you were asking about the general concept of stacked diffs, not the specifics of what GitHub is releasing here. That's my mistake for misunderstanding, sorry about that.

This is also (assumedly, anyway) why they're calling this "stacked PRs" and not "stacked diffs," because what they're doing is slightly different than Gerrit, Phabricator, Critique, etc.

	▲	ninkendo 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Thanks for indulging me so far, by the way, I really appreciate this discussion, it's very stimulating. After thinking about the whole thing I think I can summarize my opinion a lot better now: Stacked diffs are a category error. Units of discussion, and units of integration, should not be conflated. A branch is my unit of intended integration: merge all of it or none of it. The fact that reviewers need smaller slices to discuss does not imply those slices should become independently landable history objects. That’s a UX concern for the review tool, not something I should have to encode into Git history. The ideal system would let me seed discussion however I want (by commit, by path, by subsystem, by semantic region of the diff, etc) without forcing me to pretend those are separate merge units. Github nails the "merge unit" (CI runs against the whole branch, the branch either merges or doesn't, etc), but absolutely fumbles in the discussion part. I hate that I'd have to change the merge unit just to fix their discussion UX.