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| ▲ | okhobb 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The purpose of prediction markets is to communicate insider knowledge. | | |
| ▲ | miki123211 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The purpose of any price-based system is to communicate knowledge, not necessarily insider knowledge. There are actually two theories on insider knowledge. One states that allowing insider trading is beneficial, as it allows prices to better match the underlying reality, the other states that this discourages non-insider trading, which actually makes the prices worse. Stock markets lean heavily towards the second theory, while prediction markets seem to be leaning towards the first. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Why would encouraging non-insider training be desirable in the first place, other than to create a more high-status form of gambling, with higher spouse acceptance factor than smoke-filled room poker games? People with no inside knowledge[0] are just trading on vibes, how is that useful for the economy? -- [0] - Or external knowledge, but actual knowledge - thinking of hedge funds stalking CEOs as they fly in private jets, or counting cars in parking lots from satellite photos, to get some probability estimates on factors actually relevant to the performance of a business and possible future events. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The stock market wasn't designed to be gambling. You're buying a piece of a company. They want people to come so they can raise money for expanding businesses. If insider trading benefits some at the expense of others, people won't come. Obviously it has come a long way from that, and the markets have become more like gambling. You could probably allow insider trading at this point and the system would continue just fine. | |
| ▲ | efromvt a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hmm yeah it depends on your definition of insider. If you assume all raw information is public-ish, a market can reward those who can synthesize/operate on that knowledge to predict better. (The cars in the lot, etc. there is friction to this discovery; the knowledge can be communicated to others through the market after discovery to profit off the initial cost of discovery). There is symmetric competition to some degree. If you have true non public knowledge (I’m going to say something to tank the stock on this date) then you are purely extracting value from others because you will always win; they will never have that info and the incentive for anyone else to participate in price discovery would go away. | |
| ▲ | dasudasu a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Non-insider trading is liquidity. That’s why people pay for retail trading volume (payment for order flow). Not because of nefarious reasons. Just because it represents liquidity. With no liquidity it’s impossible to enter or exit trades efficiently. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Though at this point volume is far higher than needed for liquidity. We do not need companies holding stocks for a millisecond in order to squeeze out arbitrage, and we do not need day traders hoping to arbitrage noise. The stock market would not be noticeably less liquid if people had to hold stocks for 24 hours, but volume would drop like a rock. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | naniwaduni 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Stocks are a financing mechanism. They're useful for the economy independent of the price discovery aspect in the much the same ways that lending is, except that instead of receiving an obligation of future payment you're compensated on vibes. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | thetailrisk a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | jfengel a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Stock markets also want to keep executives honest. When the insider can affect the outcome, it creates bad motives. They don't want the CEO selling a bunch of puts, then deliberately tanking the stock. Not for the other bettors, but because the institution is about business. Prediction markets are doing a bit of that. Some won't take bets on an assassination. | | |
| ▲ | slashdev a day ago | parent [-] | | You can bet on assassination. There are polymarket prediction markets for leaders of many countries where you can bet on if they will cease to be the leader by X date, for any reason. If they get assassinated, those markets will resolve to yes. At least the rules don't specifically exclude that. |
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| ▲ | _cadp a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >the other states that this discourages non-insider trading, which actually makes the prices worse This theory is fundamentally not credible, the other side of any trade you make on the stock market is essentially always going to be vastly more sophisticated than you. Insider trading makes zero difference to the end-user. The credible argument against insider trading is that it's a form of theft. You are making trades based on information which does not belong to you, and which you have an obvious duty to protect. You are essentially stealing from the people you work for. | | | |
| ▲ | mapt a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the hypothetical Anarcho-Capitalist finance world, the remedy for a breach of fiduciary duty (corporate graft / insider tips) looks more like Jim Bell than Chuck Rhoades. |
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| ▲ | khimaros 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha... | | |
| ▲ | eru 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Compare and contrast https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo... | | |
| ▲ | Orygin a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Why does the page have a non-removable blue filter? Feels like a popup shadow that doesn't go away... | |
| ▲ | viccis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The purpose of the Ukrainian military is to get stuck in a years-long stalemate with Russia. >These are obviously false. The purpose of the Ukrainian military is to exhaust the Russian army's materiel and test out our weapons. "Years-long stalemate with Russia? Yes, please." -the US. Seems like an overwhelmingly common Scott Alexander L. | | |
| ▲ | verzali 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Scott Alexander often seems surprisingly unaware of his priors, especially when speaking about things beyond the American shores. | |
| ▲ | eru 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The purpose of the Ukrainian military is to exhaust the Russian army's materiel and test out our weapons. Since when does country A decide what the purpose of country B's military is? | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL a day ago | parent | next [-] | | In practice, always. It's similar to the claim that during the cold war, US basically controlled USSR economy, and vice versa, and that US won because USSR economy just couldn't keep up. On smaller scale, this is the (in)famous "fire and motion"[0], which works in business as much as it does in military tactics. Make a move, forcing competitors to respond to it. If you're better at it than them (and lucky), you can choose your moves to make their responses go to your advantage. -- [0] - https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/ | |
| ▲ | viccis 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Since country A pays for country B's military. | | |
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| ▲ | vasco 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is the purpose of replying to Wikipedia with random substack drivel to get downvoted? Or is it a byproduct of the system? | | |
| ▲ | eru 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, that's not what the system does. So it can't be its purpose, I guess. In any case, the blog is well regarded in these circles. |
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| ▲ | actionfromafar a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was shocked at how shallow that take is. I expected more. |
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| ▲ | savanaly a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not just insider knowledge. Being more willing to put in hard work than anyone else, being better at synthesizing public knowledge, or maintaining a more clear and unemotional outlook all can also lead you to superior outcomes. | |
| ▲ | mastax a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That isn’t how they were pitched to the FTC but it does appear to be their ultimate use case. | |
| ▲ | UncleMeat a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People say this but I don't believe that it is true. The original theoretical purpose was to incentivize the creation of new knowledge, not reward insider knowledge that already exists. For example, to fund research that helps answer some unanswered question. Today, the purpose is obviously gambling. We can see that clearly from the marketing. | |
| ▲ | altmanaltman 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | and facilitate insider trading, like how do people miss that part | | |
| ▲ | wahern 2 days ago | parent [-] | | To say the purpose of a market is to reveal insider information is how you say insider trading is a good thing without saying insider trading is a good thing. There's a ton of scholarly debate about it, and at least most of the early stuff was pretty earnest. But rather than the debate becoming more refined and nuanced over time it seems to have bifurcated along partisan (or partisan adjacent) lines like everything else, similar to the Keynesian/Misesian divide. | | |
| ▲ | js8 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The proof that free markets are efficient (even in the narrow sense economists use this word) relies on an assumption of perfect information. This has been known at least since Akerlof. The Misesian folks are a lost cause, IMHO. They're hardcore rationalists, self-indulging in circular moral arguments from assumptions that don't apply in the real world. | | |
| ▲ | wahern a day ago | parent [-] | | That's what makes the insider trading argument so tantalizing--it's arguing that it helps move the market closer to perfect information. But, of course, the world is complicated and dynamic, and it tacitly depends on all kinds of assumptions and beliefs about the resulting costs and benefits. It would be nice if the debate shifted to pinning down those assumptions, quantifying them as best as possible, and then iteratively tweaking and adjusting regulatory models. But that's true of just about everything and probably too unrealistic an ask, especially at a time when one side is convinced markets are just a mechanism for unjust exploitation, and the other side is convinced regulation is what sustains inequity (to the extent inequity is something even worth caring about). |
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| ▲ | names_are_hard a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes. And indeed, when aggregated and averaged across all betters, nobody makes any money. The question isn't what percentage of bets resolve to no, but whether there is a consistent bias in the prices away from the fair price, which has an expected value of 0, and what direction that bias is in. | |
| ▲ | hamasho 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I hate that many people or even the news and scientists have already started to see the odds of prediction market as fact. I'm sure in the near future, policy decisions or war strategies will be decided by prediction markets' odds, if they are not already being used. | | |
| ▲ | jonahx 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They're far from facts, but have an important advantage over most other sources: the bettors are motivated to predict truth. News sources are motivated to get clicks, to appeal to certain audiences, and to retain tribal customers. None of these create incentives for truth. You can seek out smart, well-informed and principled journalists who will prioritize truth-seeking over money-making. There are some. But the fact remains you are relying on character to override incentives. With prediction markets, incentives and truth are naturally aligned. This makes them a powerful and valuable resource imo, even if there is a lot of scumminess that comes along for the ride. The insiders, more than anyone, are contributing to the truth signal. | | |
| ▲ | busssard a day ago | parent | next [-] | | on the other hand, similar to that one old assassination page, where you bet on the death date of people, it might encourage someone to make an event happen and thus fabricate the insider knowledge if the price is high enough. So the feedback from prediction market turns around, so you can essentially buy events if you put enough money in. | |
| ▲ | mvc a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the bettors are motivated to predict truth. But also motivated to bend the truth to their bet as the journalist in Israel found. | |
| ▲ | Geezus_42 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are motivated to pick what they believe is most likely to happen. The develope their idea of what is most likely to happen for the news. The reporters use their bets to wrote stories predicting what will happen. See the loop? | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Reporters have an entirely different incentive -- they're less interested in what will happen than whether or not they get eyeballs on their story. | |
| ▲ | jonahx 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's not how it works. First, you have inside traders. Then, among legitimate bettors, you have smart people using multiple data sources (not just the "news") and doing sophisticated analysis that most journalists cannot do, and are not motivated to do -- again, because their incentives are different. | | |
| ▲ | vasco 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Smart people cannot predict things by 'research'. "Will the US strike Iran by X date" going from 20% likelihood to 80%+ within hours points simply to insiders. You can do research to know the US would strike, there's no other point in moving multiple carriers over to somewhere. But exactly WHEN is not researchable. This applies to most other bets. So lets stop pretending there's anything more than 2 cohorts, insiders and degenerate gamblers. | | |
| ▲ | TheCowboy a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It's an empirical fact that smart people can predict things by doing research. See Tetlock's book Superforecasting. I've been doing it profitably myself for almost 10 years now. I have zero special inside knowledge, and no access to any other non-public information. > Will the US strike Iran by X date Last year I did think the market for a strike on Iran was significantly underpriced given the information and conditions within a specific frame of time. I don't think every smart person can just pop into prediction markets and print money, but I know many smart people who are long-term winners. I also don't try to knock people as degenerate when they have genuine talent. | | |
| ▲ | vasco 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | You haven't been profitable for 10 years on prediction markets and you being profitable doesn't mean anything in regards to insiders or the rigging of a market. |
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| ▲ | thetailrisk a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | eru 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No? Where's the loop? |
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| ▲ | a11ce 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | See also: https://mason.gmu.edu/~rhanson/futarchy.html |
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