| ▲ | oceansky 7 hours ago |
| Brazil and India have created alternatives to Mastercard/Visa duopoly. EU is seeking to do the same. |
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| ▲ | MikeTheGreat 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm pretty sure that I know what the answer is (sadly), but I'll try anyways: Any chance folks in the US can use these, in the US? This is a genuine question, although I don't have my hopes up. It would be nice to have some actual competition / choices |
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| ▲ | lmm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It costs you nothing but a few hours (heck, you may even make money on the points) to get a Discover card, which you can use on Japanese game sites that don't apply the Visa/Mastercard censorship (they have a partnership with JCB). It's a small move, but most people can't even be bothered to do that much for competition. | |
| ▲ | NewJazz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hope you like carrying cash. |
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| ▲ | dtech 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many European countries have had viable online alternatives since forever, and a lot of them are being consolidated into Werk, which will also enable physical payments |
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| ▲ | wat10000 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| China has cleverly replaced the Mastercard/Visa duopoly with an AliPay/WeChat Pay duopoly. |
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| ▲ | thaumasiotes an hour ago | parent [-] | | They'd like to. Vending machines will no longer sell to you unless you can pay that way. For more significant things, you can still use cash. I'd go down to my landlord's bank every three months to pay the rent. | | |
| ▲ | kulahan an hour ago | parent [-] | | Was that like, enforced? Or did your landlord potentially just prefer cash? I know very little about how land-ownership works in China, except that nobody really ever owns their land. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes an hour ago | parent [-] | | My landlord preferred to be paid through Alipay. I had to pay in cash because Alipay wouldn't let me make payments that large. (Because my Alipay account was backed by a foreign credit card as opposed to a Chinese bank account, I assume. If you're curious, the rent was about US$700 / month, so the payment would have been about US$2100.) I don't see that landownership is really relevant. Mostly it's done on the basis of notional 70-year leases from the government. Since the government dates to 1949, the first round of those recently expired. There was a lot of curiosity beforehand as to what would happen, but it doesn't seem to have made enough of a splash that anyone commented about it (where I could see) afterwards. So I don't know how it turned out. I understand that rural peasants may sometimes own their land outright. In this case, I was renting one apartment in a building with 5-6 floors and I think 4 apartments per floor. |
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| ▲ | gambiting 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Many countries have alternatives already. In Poland Blik is ubiquitous and very very easy to use. And I love how it's implemented, Visa and MasterCard could learn from it. Tldr - you open the app on your phone and it gives you a 6 digit BLIK code, you give that code to the seller, then a notification comes up on the app saying "seller X is trying to debit your account by amount Y, agree?". It's brilliant because then the seller gets nothing identifiable about you. Even if someone overhears the code, it's only valid 60 second so it's useless. Unlike with regular cards there is no risk of losing one or using a fake terminal that scans your card instead. And any transaction has to be explicitly rather than implicitly approved. Love it. |
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| ▲ | ArekDymalski an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | BLIK rocks. In addition to being a payment system for goods and services it can be used for instant private money transfers between individuals. | |
| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is indeed one of the biggest weaknesses of "pull-based" payment cards, and something most if not all natively phone-based methods do better. The best credit and debit cards can do is PIN verification or biometrics (for Apple/Google Pay), but even there you still trust the terminal to not show you a different amount than you'll be charged (assuming the screen is even pointing towards you; I've often been asked to tap without seeing what I'm even consenting to). Online, there's 3DS, but that's not required everywhere and for every transaction. There once was a vision to extend both positive cardholder approval and cardholder authentication for each card transaction, but it turns out the friction of that is higher on average than just letting everything but the most egregiously suspicious fraud go through by default and handle the rest via the disputes process. Out of curiosity: > you open the app on your phone and it gives you a 6 digit BLIK code, you give that code to the seller Is this the flow for online payments as well, or only for in-person payments? | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Is this the flow for online payments as well, or only for in-person payments? On-line, too. Or should I say, first, because AFAIK on-line came first. I've been using it for years as my default on-line payment method where available, before noticing it becoming an option on POS terminals. | |
| ▲ | gambiting 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >>Is this the flow for online payments as well, or only for in-person payments? works for both | | |
| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Interesting, I wonder if there is some other initiation channel then? The chance of collisions with random 6-digit codes seems non-negligible. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've been wondering this too. As I understand it, BLIK codes are generated on the back-end, so I imagine they have some clever anti-collision measures in place. What I know is: - The TTL of the code is variable; on some days I've noticed it to be as low as 60 seconds, on others around 3+ minutes. Not sure if it depends on the type of transaction or time of day. - After entering the code in charging widget/terminal, or giving it to a merchant, you still get a screen on which you need to explicitly confirm the transaction; it displays the amount and name of charging entity, so this would presumably reduce the impact of possible collision. - Sometimes the codes generate instantly, sometimes it takes a few seconds; I always assumed it's network connection lag and/or usual webshit performance issues, but it would also be consistent with an anti-collision measure - if you run out of 6-digit codes, wait a second or two, some will free up. - Not once I've heard any report or rumor about a collision. |
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| ▲ | wincy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I misread blik as “bilk” which is… probably the last word you’d want associated with your credit card or payment processor in English. | | |
| ▲ | kulahan an hour ago | parent [-] | | There used to be a beer designed to be mixed with milk called bilk. Last I heard, it was terrible. Maybe it's still around - I think it's Japanese, so it's unlikely I'd happen across it. |
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| ▲ | tgsovlerkhgsel 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's the problem. Every country has an alternative or ten, but what people actually need is one system that works across borders. That's the only way it reaches enough critical mass to be useful internationally beyond the EU, which nowadays is a requirement for it to be able to replace Visa/Mastercard in a decade or so. | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes an hour ago | parent [-] | | There's never been a system like that. Given this reality, it seems like a stretch to say that people need one. |
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| ▲ | iknowstuff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah but approving every purchase from a merchant I trust, like Amazon, would be annoying. Gotta allow for one tap to purchase, like eg apple pay does | | |
| ▲ | snicky 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | IIRC BLIK asks you if you want to skip the verification next time you buy from the same merchant. |
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | floam 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 6 digits effectively the time salted … the other digits are your lat long lol. |
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| ▲ | anonym29 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Bitcoin exists. Completely permissionless, anyone on earth can use it. Easier to accept as a merchant than any third party integration. Doesn't require you to trust any government at all. |
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| ▲ | snicky 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Cool, but unfortunately, it has the same same drawbacks as cash. If you get scammed, accidentally pay too much or lose your wallet you will never get it back. I sleep safer knowing that there is some protection in the banking system against losing money all of sudden. | |
| ▲ | ddtaylor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People are downvoting you, but I can literally pay for my meal using CashApp at a diner in the middle of nowhere using Bitcoin. | |
| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unfortunately it's also pretty clunky for tax reasons in many places and inherently deflationary (and as such problematic from an economic point of view). Sure, great if you don't trust your government or whoever issues your local currency, but if you can, there are better alternatives. Trust is an asset, not just a liability. | | |
| ▲ | anonym29 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well-placed trust is a small asset, but misplaced trust is a massive liability. | | |
| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | It might not always be warranted, but where it was, increased trust in society, institutions, and systems has been the enabler for economic growth and human development in the past centuries. Talk it down at your own (or more accurately, at all our) peril. | | |
| ▲ | anonym29 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Economic growth and human development over the last several centuries has been the result of a complex web of interleaved prerequisites, that said, trust wasn't one them. People trusted institutions for thousands of years prior to the scientific revolution. Europe had plenty of trust in religious institutions between the collapse of the Roman empire and the scientific revolution, and you know what it got them? Superstition, witch hunts, barbarism in the name of proselytizing, failed pandemic responses, and a near complete stall in technological and scientific breakthroughs for a millennium. What the scientific revolution brought us was the decision to not trust, but to reason, to measure, to hypothesize, to verify. Facts matter. Humans are stupid and it is human nature to place trust exactly where trust is least warranted. | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "Economic growth and human development over the last several centuries has been the result of" Fossil fuels...most of the growth from 1800-1970 was due to fossil fuels. Not sure why this is such a mystery to so many. Makes sense when you think about it from a physics POV. You use energy to move things, to make things, to travel to buy things, etc. Heck, the middle class wasn't a concept until the industrial revolution which was caused by...say it with me...fossil fuels. |
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| ▲ | 0x3f 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The EU 'seeks' to do a lot of things but is notoriously ineffective. |
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| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The EU already managed to make card payments significantly cheaper and more secure within a few years than they'll probably ever be in the US (still no PINs and no 3DS, and interchange will probably never get regulated because everybody freelances as a severely underpaid lobbyist thanks to frequent flyer miles), to say nothing of regulating a free and instant bank payment scheme into existence while FedNow is still rolling out. Say what you will about EU inefficiency and regulations, but in my view, at least their financial ones have been largely on point. | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wirecard was pretty good. Assuming you're Jan Marsalek. |
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