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Tepix 2 days ago

Is it unnecessary burden? We've had major nuclear accidents despite regulations and that was before 9/11 and dron wars.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

What's the fatality rate per GWh of civilian nuclear power in the US vs. other forms of power generation?

leonidasrup a day ago | parent | next [-]

Nuclear and renewables are far, far safer than fossil fuels.

Fossil fuels and biomass kill many more people than nuclear and modern renewables per unit of electricity. Coal is, by far, the dirtiest.

https://ourworldindata.org/nuclear-energy#safety-of-nuclear-...

Tepix 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There's not just deaths and malformations. There's also a cost of contaminated food and unlivable areas.

lxgr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you rhetorically or actually asking? I'd guess significantly lower than coal and gas, and in the ballpark of (but still higher than) solar and wind combined (in the expected value, i.e. probability of a Chernobyl-like disaster times the death toll of that).

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

No member of the public has died from civilian nuclear power in the US. Significantly more people have died installing solar panels by falling off of roofs.

Tepix 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just because you can't prove that a cancer was caused by a nuclear plant doesn't mean it wasn't the cause.

Just from statistics, it's certain that some of the unaccounted deaths were caused by radiation.

lxgr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's why I mentioned expected values. Historical data alone is too sparse.

I don't doubt that that resulting number is still very low, or there (being intentionally optimistic about politics and society here) wouldn't be any nuclear plants.

Especially long-term storage is tricky, and if you need to consider time horizons of millenia, even small risks add up.

> Significantly more people have died installing solar panels by falling off of roofs.

In fairness, you then also have to consider "regular" industrial accidents at nuclear plants, which are probably still much lower (due to the presumably much higher energy output per employee hour than other forms). But that's besides the larger point of low probability and historical risk.

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent [-]

> That's why I mentioned expected values. Historical data alone is too sparse.

The data is sparse because the rate is very low. If the world used twice as much nuclear power as it does now, we don't have enough statistical data to predict with high accuracy if something as bad as Chernobyl would happen two more times or zero more times but the existing data allows us to be pretty confident it wouldn't be 100 more times. Meanwhile coal kills more people than 100 Chernobyls every year in just the US.

There is also reason to suspect Chernobyl was an outlier because the USSR was such an authoritarian nightmare. They not only screwed up the design of the reactor (positive void coefficient, no containment building) but then also its operation and the response. The majority of the confirmed deaths were plant workers and emergency responders who got radiation exposure after being sent in without training or relevant equipment. It took the USSR more than three days to admit that it had even happened so that people living next to the plant would know to leave the immediate area. Screwing it up that bad required more than an honest mistake.

> Especially long-term storage is tricky, and if you need to consider time horizons of millenia, even small risks add up.

The "thousands of years" thing is essentially fake. Radiological half-life is the inverse of intensity. Things with a half-life of five minutes are super radioactive. Things with a half-life of thousands of years aren't much above background.

For example, there is an isotope of uranium that has a half-life of four billion years. It's also a pain because its decay chain contains radon gas. ZOMG what are we going to do with it for that long? Well, that's the one that represents 99.3% of natural uranium straight out of the ground, which is why homes in areas with natural granite need radon reduction systems, so it turns out the answer to what we do with it is we can put it in a reactor and use it to generate electricity and that will turn it into something with a shorter half life that goes away sooner. And the major ones that are "thousands of years" can also be used to generate electricity if we would actually separate them and use them for that to get rid of them instead of wringing our hands about where we're supposed to keep them.

> In fairness, you then also have to consider "regular" industrial accidents at nuclear plants, which are probably still much lower (due to the presumably much higher energy output per employee hour than other forms).

It's also lower because nuclear plants are pretty obsessive about safety vs. random solar installation company whose job application test is to see if you can make it onto a third story roof with a two story ladder.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Nobody has died from nuclear accidents. If we’re including workers falling off of roofs then we should include nuclear power plant workers dying from mundane industrial accidents which has happened in the US.

pfdietz 2 days ago | parent [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_River_Junction,_Rhode_Isl...

AnthonyMouse a day ago | parent [-]

If we're going to do things that aren't power plants then aren't you going to get renewables in trouble for needing more raw materials per unit of generation from dangerous environmentally hazardous mining operations?

wat10000 a day ago | parent | next [-]

We definitely should look at the entire supply chain for all of them, assuming the goal is maximum benefit for minimum suffering.

pfdietz a day ago | parent [-]

> maximum benefit

If we do that, we need to assign a value to a statistical human life. This is usually taken to be something like $12M (adjusted for age).

And having done that, we discover the contribution of lost lives to the cost of solar and wind (and nuclear, without accidents) is lost in the noise. So the problem ends up choosing the source that is directly cheaper; differences in deaths per TWh can be ignored.

wat10000 20 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m assuming you mean when choosing between solar/wind/nuclear? I don’t imagine all others are so benign.

pfdietz 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, the deaths from (say) coal are much higher and would contribute significantly to cost.

pfdietz a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I was nitpicking.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
ViewTrick1002 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Tiring with arbitrary limitations to exclude major accidents of a fleet in the hundreds.

The difference between renewables and nuclear power is who gets harmed.

When dealing with nuclear accidents entire populations are forced into life changing evacuations, if all goes well.

For renewables the only harm that comes are for the people who has chosen to work in the industry. And the workplace hazards are the same as any other industry working with heavy things and electric equipment.

belorn a day ago | parent | next [-]

> For renewables the only harm that comes are for the people who has chosen to work in the industry.

We are definitively not including hydro power and their dam projects in that category.

ViewTrick1002 a day ago | parent [-]

On a whole hydro has saved lives due to managing rivers which previously caused devastating floods.

The reason a ton of dams exists is not to make power, it is manage the river. Making power is a secondary concern.

But when we’re done with climate change we should of course restore as many rivers as possible due to the ecosystem damage they cause.

mpweiher a day ago | parent [-]

On the whole, nuclear power has saved many more lives, over 1.8 million up to 2011.

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/pubs/abs/kh05000e.html

And the worst power-production disaster in history so far was neither Fukushima nor Chernobyl, but the 1975 Banqiao Dam failure. And it's not even close.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Banqiao_Dam_failure

AnthonyMouse 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> When dealing with nuclear accidents entire populations are forced into life changing evacuations, if all goes well.

There have been multiple nuclear accidents in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor_accidents_in_t...

Which of them resulted in "entire populations [] forced into life changing evacuations"? Which ones were the implied something worse than that and what happened then?

> For renewables the only harm that comes are for the people who has chosen to work in the industry.

Solar panels are essentially semiconductors. "Silicon valley" is called that because they used to actually make such things there. You can tell from the number of superfund sites.

"The newer ones are safer" has a certain symmetry to it, right?

> And the workplace hazards are the same as any other industry working with heavy things and electric equipment.

Those things are actually the dangerous things though? There were no fatalities from Three Mile Island but a plant worker at a nuclear power plant in Arkansas was killed and several others injured when a crane collapsed and a generator fell on them. Power company line workers have a worse-than-average fatality rate from getting electrocuted.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The definition of “major accident” used in nuclear is orders of magnitude more strict than in any other industries though, which distort the picture.

The worst nuclear accident involving a nuclear plant (Chernobyl, which occurred in a country without regulation for all intent and purpose) killed less people than the food processing industry cause every year (and I'm not counting long term health effect of junk food, just contamination incidents in the processing units leading to deadly intoxications of consumers).

In countries with regulations there's been 2 “major accidents”: TMI killed no one, Fukushima killed 1 guy and injured 24, in the plant itself. In any industries that would be considered workplace safety violation, not “major accident”… And it occurred in the middle of, and because, a tsunami which killed 19000!

I'm actually happy this regulation exist because that's why there ate so little accidents, but claiming that it's still hazardous despite the regulations is preposterous.

Tepix 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The definition of “major accident” used in nuclear is orders of magnitude more strict than in any other industries though, which distort the picture.

What would your definition of a "major incident" be for photovoltaics?

watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I am pretty sure we dont need to evacuate large areas and keep sarcofag over former food processing plants.

The chernobyl was poisoning Russian soldiers by the start of Ukrainian invasion when they were dumb enough to sleep there.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I am pretty sure we dont need to evacuate large areas and keep sarcofag over former food processing plants.

If we only tolerated the same long term risk level for food, you wouldn't be be eating anything but organic vegetables. The fact that we put a sarcophagus to prevent material from leaking is just the reflection of the accepted limits. Flint water crisis was much more dangerous than leaving Chernobyl without the latest sarcophagus but nobody cared for a decade.

> The chernobyl was poisoning Russian soldiers by the start of Ukrainian invasion

The stories of acute radiation poisoning have been debunked repeatedly, there simply isn't enough radioactive material left there to cause such symptoms (it's still a very bad idea to eat mushrooms or the meat of wild animals living there, you'd risk long term cancer, but nothing close to acute radiation poisoning, it's simply not possible from a physics standpoint).

And again, we're talking about an accident that happened in Soviet Union on a reactor absolutely not designed with safety in mind and with a Soviet party member who threatened the engineers into bypassing safety mechanism in order to operate outside of the design domain of the plant. And the resulting accident was nowhere near close to the Bhopal catastrophe.

Chemical site have deadly accidents every other years and nobody seems to care but they'll obsess about nuclear ones even when they barely kill anyone. And chemical plants accident do leave long lasting pollution with durable health effect, but we don't permanently evacuate the places because we tolerate the risk.

Mawr a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Your "large area" is actually tiny, and the solution is to... not go there. Yeah, all you have to do is not go to a very specific tiny area in Ukraine. I think that's quite easily manageable.

As usual, when such things are mentioned, you lack any and all sense of scale and statistics. Just pure fearmongering.

Look at the number of all nuclear plants over their entire lifetime and divide their benefits by the cost of what, the two or three major incidents you can think of? This simple calculation alone makes your arguments utterly ridiculous. We accept 1000x the risk and cost of that on a daily basis, in e.g. driving, gas and coal plants.

Go ahead and evacuate to get away from the negative effects of soot, tire dust, CO2, and all the other fun pollution that's spread out over the entire atmosphere. Good luck living on Mars.

littlestymaar 20 hours ago | parent [-]

It's even worse than this, you'd don't even need to compare to other industries, nuclear-induced death over the past 40 years are negligible even when you compare to stuff like professional diseases of maids or electricians (and I'm purposely not picking hazardous professions…).