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mmooss 5 hours ago

> it is part of the "packages" and totally depends on whether the one wants to use.

Could you explain what packages are and what depends on (what?)?

> Historically violence has been a very...effective tool.

This is dramatic sci-fi for anarchists of all political stripes.

The critical reality to understand is that violence is the most ineffective tool, causing catastrophic harm for others and outcomes that the perpetrators rarely control or foresee. Revolutions can overthrow status quo power but what follows is rarely what the perpetrators aimed for. The same happens in warfare - the outcome is rarely what anyone envisioned at the start, a fundamental lessons that experts try to teach hot-headed amateurs that think warfare will solve their problems.

It also establishes violence as legitimate - usable by everyone else too, a very bad outcome and the opposite of the rule of law, incompatible with freedom; it elevates violence and destruction over life and liberty. In contrast, the American Revolution was founded on principles of freedom and law (for example, in the Declaration of Independence), did not embrace violence as desireable, and laid it out for example in the Declaration of Independence.

The most successful societies have freedom, the rule of law, and allow violence only as a last necessity to restore freedom and the rule of law.

jyounker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A lot of people in the US feel like they've already tried the nice way, and it's failed. Given the increasing wealth disparity between the haves and the have-nots, it's hard to argue otherwise.

aegis4244 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Many, close to most of the "have-nots" just voted to help the "haves" at great cost to themselves. The economic decline across fly over states isn't going to stop. It's going to continue. Resulting in those angry uneducated voters to double down. Those old factory jobs are gone. Unlikely to come back in our or our children's lifetime. They are ideologically opposed to education. Leading to more of the same, just more so. Economically, politically, and educatively.

calcifer 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> In contrast, the American Revolution was founded on principles of freedom and law [...] did not embrace violence as desireable

That's pretty rich, since the United States only exists thanks to systemic, deliberate violence on a mass scale against the local population.

bdangubic 4 hours ago | parent [-]

and has continued to this day with violence against non-local populations around the world

hnthrowaway0315 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know, but just look at Iran and US. Where is "rule of law"? Who is going to give it magically?

Packages = ways to "adapt" to the challenges of the world.

mmooss 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> look at Iran and US. Where is "rule of law"? Who is going to give it magically?

Rule of law - in this case, international law - has governed the Strait of Hormuz and relations between the US and Iran for decades. It's not magical or fantasy at all, but a very well-established and effective mechanism that has been the foundation of the most peaceful world arguably in human history. There is no valid argument that it doesn't work (saying it hasn't worked 100% of the time is not valid).

The Trump administration explicitly aims to destroy that rule of law. I think that's why they attacked Venezuala, Iran, civilian boats, etc. Stephen Miller advocates that power, not law, rules.

You can see the outcome when international law was used, and the outcome when it is intentionally destroyed: Look simply at the Strait, which had free navigation under international law, despite the extreme emnity between Iran, and the US and its Mideast allies.

And now, with international law under assault, free navigation has ended. To be clear, I don't only mean the US's and Israel's attack: Developing nuclear weapons would also violate international law, and maybe so does developing highly enriched fissile materials (e.g., uranium). I'm not sure about sponsoring insurgent proxies in other countries, but that has long been practiced by many countries, including the US and many in NATO.

The rule of law allows societies to function. We don't want the world or our communities to function like failed states - those people are poor, starving, and brutally oppressed.

spaghetdefects 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> The Trump administration explicitly aims to destroy that rule of law.

It's not just Trump. Trump and Biden both shredded the rule of law for Israel. I think both parties being captured by a genocidal foreign government has caused mass dissolution with the ability of the US to act within any framework that brings justice.

throwway120385 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

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cogogo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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4 hours ago | parent [-]
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Longlius 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The American revolution literally engaged in systemic attacks against British property.

jltsiren 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The critical reality to understand is that people have always used violence. If they don't believe that they live in a successful society, or if they believe that the success of the society is not distributed fairly (or in a way that benefits them), violence starts looking attractive.

Enlightenment and industrialization created societies that were fairer, wealthier, and more free than anything before. They also created ideologies such as communism and nationalism that killed hundreds of millions. If your ideas are good and successful in the long term but create poverty, suffering, and feelings of unfairness in time scales people care about, there will be violence.

Compromises are the key tool in preventing violence. Unfortunately, the word itself carries negative connotations in too many languages, making effective compromises less likely.

cucumber3732842 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>If they don't believe that they live in a successful society, or if they believe that the success of the society is not distributed fairly (or in a way that benefits them), violence starts looking attractive.

Especially when the answer to every "well why doesn't it work this way" you could possibly ask seems to come back to "state violence has put its thumb on the scale of society". The government or "the ruling order" or "the system" (whatever you want to call it kind of brought this on itself by taking so much crap under it's umbrella

jcgrillo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The most successful societies have freedom, the rule of law, and allow violence only as a last necessity to restore freedom and the rule of law.

The ugly, uncomfortable part is that when a certain fraction of people decide violence is the answer, a tipping point is reached and that's what happens. Historically, people have reached that point en masse without a great deal of provocation. So for a society to remain successful--or to remain at all--it needs to prevent this tipping point from happening. Force alone can't do that.