| ▲ | galaxyLogic 7 hours ago |
| But then if AI output is not under GNU General Public License, how can it become so just because a Linux-developer adds it to the code-base? |
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| ▲ | jillesvangurp 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| AIs are not human and therefore their output is a human authored contribution and only human authored things are covered by copyright. The work might hypothetically infringe on other people's copyright. But such an infringement does not happen until a human decides to create and distribute a work that somehow integrates that generated code or text. The solution documented here seems very pragmatic. You as a contributor simply state that you are making the contribution and that you are not infringing on other people's work with that contribution under the GPLv2. And you document the fact that you used AI for transparency reasons. There is a lot of legal murkiness around how training data is handled, and the output of the models. Or even the models themselves. Is something that in no way or shape resembles a copyrighted work (i.e. a model) actually distributing that work? The legal arguments here will probably take a long time to settle but it seems the fair use concept offers a way out here. You might create potentially infringing work with a model that may or may not be covered by fair use. But that would be your decision. For small contributions to the Linux kernel it would be hard to argue that a passing resemblance of say a for loop in the contribution to some for loop in somebody else's code base would be anything else than coincidence or fair use. |
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| ▲ | nitwit005 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That you can't copyright the AI's output (in the US, at least), doesn't imply it doesn't contain copyrighted material. If you generate an image of a Disney character, Disney still owns the copyright to that character. | |
| ▲ | ninjagoo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | IANAL; this is what my limited understanding of the matter is. With that caveat: it is easy to forget that copyright is on output- verbatim or exact reproductions and derivatives of a covered work are already covered under copyright. So if the AI outputs Starry Night or Starry Night in different color theme, that's likely infringement without permission from van Gogh, who would have recourse against someone, either the user or the AI provider. But a starry-night style picture of an aquarium might not be infringing at all. >For small contributions to the Linux kernel it would be hard to argue that a passing resemblance of say a for loop in the contribution to some for loop in somebody else's code base would be anything else than coincidence or fair use. I would argue that if it was a verbatim reproduction of a copyrighted piece of software, that would likely be infringing. But if it was similar only in style, with different function names and structure, probably not infringing. Folks will argue that some things might be too small to do any different, for example a tiny snippet like python print("hello") or 1+1=2 or a for loop in your example. In that case it's too lacking in original expression to qualify for copyright protection anyway. | |
| ▲ | Lerc 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >AIs are not human and therefore their output is a human authored contribution and only human authored things are covered by copyright. That is a non sequitur. Also, I'm not sure if copyright applies to humans, or persons (not that I have encountered particularly creative corporations, but Taranaki Maunga has been known for large scale decorative works) | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Copyright applies to legal persons, that's why corporations can have copyright at all. |
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| ▲ | mcv 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Didn't a court in the US declare that AI generated content cannot be copyrighted? I think that could be a problem for AI generated code. Fine for projects with an MIT/BSD license I suppose, but GPL relies on copyright. However, if the code has been slightly changed by a human, it can be copyrighted again. I think. | | |
| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Thaler v. Perlmutter said that an AI system cannot be listed as the sole author of a work - copyright requires a human author. US Copyright Office guidance in 2023 said work created with the help of AI can be registered as long as there is "sufficient human creative input". I don't believe that has ever been qualified with respect to code, but my instinct is that the way most people use coding agents (especially for something like kernel development) would qualify. | | |
| ▲ | davemp 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Interesting. That seems to suggest that one would need to retain the prompts in order to pursue copyright claims if a defendant can cast enough doubt on human authorship. Though I guess such a suit is unlikely if the defendant could just AI wash the work in the first place. |
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| ▲ | tadfisher 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, a court did not declare that. The case involved a person trying to register a work with only the AI system listed as author. The Supreme Court decided that you can't do that, you need to list a human being as author to register a work with the Copyright Office. This stems from existing precedent where someone tried to register a photograph with the monkey photographer listed as author. I don't believe the idea that humans can or can't claim copyright over AI-authored works has been tested. The Copyright Office says your prompt doesn't count and you need some human-authored element in the final work. We'll have to see. | | |
| ▲ | papercrane an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It's almost a certainty that you can't copyright code that was generated entirely by an AI. Copyright requires some amount of human originality. You could copyright the prompt, and if you modify the generated code you can claim copyright on your modifications. The closest applicable case would be the monkey selfie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_disput... | |
| ▲ | manwe150 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m curious to see if subscription vs free ends up mattering here. If it is a work for hire, generally it doesn’t matter how the work was produced, the end result is mine, because I contracted and instructed (prompted?) someone to do it for me. So will the copyright office decide it cares if I paid for the AI tool explicitly? |
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| ▲ | RussianCow 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Didn't a court in the US declare that AI generated content cannot be copyrighted? No, my understanding is that AI generated content can't be copyrighted by the AI. A human can still copyright it, however. | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin a minute ago | parent [-] | | It's obvious that a computer program cannot have copyright because is not a person, whether legal or natural. Whether a person can claim copyright of the output of a computer program is generally understood as depending on whether there was sufficient creative effort from said person, and it doesn't really matter whether the program is Photoshop or ChatGPT. |
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| ▲ | singpolyma3 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Public domain code is GPL compatible |
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| ▲ | afro88 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Same as if a regular person did the same. They are responsible for it. If you're using AI, check the code doesn't violate licenses |
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| ▲ | rzmmm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In certain law cases plagiarization can be influenced by the fact if person is exposed to the copyrighted work. AI models are exposed to very large corpus of works.. | | |
| ▲ | cxr 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Copyright infringement and plagiarism are not the same or even very closely related. They're different concepts and not interchangeable. Relative to copyright infringement, cases of plagiarism are rarely a matter for courts to decide or care about at all. Plagiarism is primarily an ethical (and not civil or criminal) matter. Rather than be dealt with by the legal system, it is the subject of codes of ethics within e.g. academia, journalism, etc. which have their own extra-judicial standards and methods of enforcement. | | |
| ▲ | dekhn 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I suspect they were instead referring to patents; for example, when I worked at Google, they told the engineers not to read patents because then the engineer might invent something infringing, I think it's called willful infringement. No other employer I've worked for has every raised this as an issue, while many lawyers at google would warn against this. |
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| ▲ | martin-t 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As opposed to an irregular person? LLMs are not persons, not even legal ones (which itself is a massive hack causing massive issues such as using corporate finances for political gain). A human has moral value a text model does not. A human has limitations in both time and memory available, a model of text does not. I don't see why comparisons to humans have any relevance. Just because a human can do something does not mean machines run by corporations should be able to do it en-masse. The rules of copyright allow humans to do certain things because: - Learning enriches the human. - Once a human consumes information, he can't willingly forget it. - It is impossible to prove how much a human-created intellectual work is based on others. With LLMs: - Training (let's not anthropomorphize: lossily-compressing input data by detecting and extracting patterns) enriches only the corporation which owns it. - It's perfectly possible to create a model based only on content with specific licenses or only public domain. - It's possible to trace every single output byte to quantifiable influences from every single input byte. It's just not an interesting line of inquiry for the corporations benefiting from the legal gray area. | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How could you do that though? You can’t guarantee that there aren’t chunks of copied code that infringes. | | |
| ▲ | Andrex 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let me introduce you to the concept of submarine patents... | |
| ▲ | shevy-java 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But the responsible party is still the human who added the code. Not the tool that helped do so. | | |
| ▲ | aargh_aargh 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The practical concern of Linux developers regarding responsibility is not being able to ban the author, it's that the author should take ongoing care for his contribution. | |
| ▲ | Cytobit 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's not going to shield the Linux organization. | | |
| ▲ | cxr 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | A DCO bearing a claim of original authorship (or assertion of other permitted use) isn't going to shield them entirely, but it can mitigate liability and damages. | | |
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| ▲ | sarchertech 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In a court case the responsibility party very well could be the Linux foundation because this is a foreseeable consequence of allowing AI contributions. There’s no reasonable way for a human to make such a guarantee while using AI generated code. | | |
| ▲ | Chance-Device 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not about the mechanism: responsibility is a social construct, it works the way people say that it works. If we all agree that a human can agree to bear the responsibility for AI outputs, and face any consequences resulting from those outputs, then that’s the whole shebang. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure we could change the law. It would be a stupid change to allow individuals, organizations, and companies to completely shield themselves from the consequences of risky behaviors (more than we already do) simply by assigning all liability to a fall guy. | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | Chance-Device 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What law exactly are you suggesting needs to be changed? How is this any different from what already happens right now, today? | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right now it's very easy not to infringe on copyrighted code if you write the code yourself. In the vast majority of cases if you infringed it's because you did something wrong that you could have prevented (in the case where you didn't do anything wrong, inducement creation is an affirmative defense against copyright infringement). That is not the case when using AI generated code. There is no way to use it without the chance of introducing infringing code. Because of that if you tell a user they can use AI generated code, and they introduce infringing code, that was a foreseeable outcome of your action. In the case where you are the owner of a company, or the head of an organization that benefits from contributors using AI code, your company or organization could be liable. | | |
| ▲ | Chance-Device 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s a foreseeable outcome that humans might introduce copyrighted code into the kernel. I think you’re looking for problems that don’t really exist here, you seem committed to an anti AI stance where none is justified. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | A human has to willingly violate the law for that to happen though. There is no way for a human to use AI generated that doesn't have a chance of producing copyrighted code though. That's just expected. If you don't think this is a problem take a look at the terms of the enterprise agreements from OpenAI and Anthropic. Companies recognize this is an issue and so they were forced to add an indemnification clause, explicitly saying they'll pay for any damages resulting in infringement lawsuits. |
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| ▲ | johnisgood 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Right now it's very easy not to infringe on copyrighted code if you write the code yourself. Humans routinely produce code similar to or identical to existing copyrighted code without direct copying. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They don’t produce enough similar code to infringe frequently. And if they did independent creation is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement that likely doesn’t apply to LLMs since they have the demonstrated capability to produce code directly from their training set. | | |
| ▲ | johnisgood 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You have shifted from "very easy not to infringe" to "don't infringe frequently", which concedes the original point that humans can and do produce infringing code without intent. On independent creation: you are conflating the tool with the user. The defense applies to whether the developer had access to the copyrighted work, not whether their tools did. A developer using an LLM did not access the training set directly, they used a synthesis tool. By your logic, any developer who has read GPL code on GitHub should lose independent creation defense because they have "demonstrated capability to produce code directly from" their memory. LLM memorization/regurgitation is a documented failure mode, not normal operation (nor typical case). Training set contamination happens, but it is rare and considered a bug. Humans also occasionally reproduce code from memory: we do not deny them independent creation defense wholesale because of that capability! In any case, the legal question is not settled, but the argument that LLM-assisted code categorically cannot qualify for independent creation defense creates a double standard that human-written code does not face. |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | bpt3 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In this case, the "fall guy" is the person who actually introduced the code in question into the codebase. They wouldn't be some patsy that is around just to take blame, but the actual responsible party for the issue. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Imagine your a factory owner and you need a chemical delivered from across the country, but the chemical is dangerous and if the tanker truck drives faster than 50 miles per hour it has a 0.001% chance per mile of exploding. You hire an independent contractor and tell him that he can drive 60 miles per hour if he wants to but if it explodes he accepts responsibility. He does and it explodes killing 10 people. If the family of those 10 people has evidence you created the conditions to cause the explosion in order to benefit your company, you're probably going to lose in civil court. Linus benefits from the increase velocity of people using AI. He doesn't get to put all the liability on the people contributing. | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is a nonsensical analogy on multiple levels, and doesn't even support your own argument. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nice rebuttal. | | |
| ▲ | bpt3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why would I put much effort into responding to a post like yours, which makes no sense and just shows that you don't understand what you're talking about? |
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| ▲ | lo_zamoyski 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Responsibility is an objective fact, not just some arbitrary social convention. What we can agree or disagree about is where it rests, but that's a matter of inference, an inference can be more or less correct. We might assign certain people certain responsibilities before the fact, but that's to charge them with the care of some good, not to blame them for things before they were charged with their care. |
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| ▲ | bitwize 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because contributions to Linux are meticulously attributed to, and remain property of, their authors, those authors bear ultimate responsibility. If Fred Foobar sends patches to the kernel that, as it turns out, contain copyrighted code, then provided upstream maintainers did reasonable due diligence the court will go after Fred Foobar for damages, and quite likely demand that the kernel organization no longer distribute copies of the kernel with Fred's code in it. | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Anyone distributing infringing material can be liable, and it’s unlikely that this technicality will actually would shield anyone. Anyone who thinks they have a strong infringement case isn’t going to stop at the guy who authored the code, they’re going to go after anyone with deep pockets with a good chance of winning. |
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| ▲ | noosphr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tab complete does not produce copyrightable material either. Yet we don't require software to be written in nano. |
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| ▲ | panzi 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If the output is public domain it's fine as I understand it. |
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| ▲ | galaxyLogic 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Makes sense to me. But so anybody can take Public Domain code and place it under GNU Public License (by dropping it into a Linux source-code file) ? Surely the person doing so would be responsible for doing so, but are they doing anything wrong? | | |
| ▲ | robinsonb5 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Surely the person doing so would be responsible for doing so, but are they doing anything wrong? You're perfectly at liberty to relicense public domain code if you wish. The only thing you can't do is enforce the new license against people who obtain the code independently - either from the same source you did, or from a different source that doesn't carry your license. | | |
| ▲ | cwnyth 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is correct, and it's not limited to code. I can take the story of Cinderella, create something new out of it, copyright my new work, but Cinderella remains public domain for someone else to do something with. If I use public domain code in a project under a license, the whole work remains under the license, but not the public domain code. I'm not sure what the hullabaloo is about. | | |
| ▲ | manwe150 an hour ago | parent [-] | | If someone else uses your exact same prompt to generate the exact same code, can you claim copyright infringement against them? If the output is possible to copyright, then you could claim their prompt is infringement (just like if it reproduced Harry Potter). If it isn’t copyrightable, then the kernel would not have legal standing to enforce the GPL on those lines of code against any future AI reproduction of them. The developers might need to show that the code is licensed under GPL and only GPL, otherwise there is the possibility the same original contributor (eg the AI) did permit the copy. The GPL is an imposed restriction on what the kernel can legally do with any code contributions. That seems legally complicated for some projects—probably not the kernel with the large amount of pre-AI code, but maybe it spells trouble for smaller newer projects if they want to sue over infringement. IANAL. |
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| ▲ | miki123211 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Linux code doesn't have to strictly be GPL-only, it just has to be GPL-compatible. If your license allows others to take the code and redistribute it with extra conditions, your code can be imported into the kernel. AFAIK there are parts of the kernel that are BSD-licensed. | |
| ▲ | jaggederest 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The core thing about licenses, in general, is that they only grant new usage. If you can already use the code because it's public domain, they don't further restrict it. The license, in that case, is irrelevant. Remember that licenses are powered by copyright - granting a license to non-copyrighted code doesn't do anything, because there's no enforcement mechanism. This is also why copyright reform for software engineering is so important, because code entering the public domain cuts the gordian knot of licensing issues. | |
| ▲ | sambaumann 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sqlite’s source code is public domain. Surely if you dropped the sqlite source code into Linux, it wouldn’t suddenly become GPL code? I’m not sure how it works |
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| ▲ | martin-t 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This ruling is IMO/IANAL based on lawyers and judges not understanding how LLMs work internally, falling for the marketing campaign calling them "AI" and not understanding the full implications. LLM-creation ("training") involves detecting/compressing patterns of the input. Inference generates statistically probable based on similarities of patterns to those found in the "training" input. Computers don't learn or have ideas, they always operate on representations, it's nothing more than any other mechanical transformation. It should not erase copyright any more than synonym substitution. | | |
| ▲ | supern0va 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >LLM-creation ("training") involves detecting/compressing patterns of the input. There's a pretty compelling argument that this is essentially what we do, and that what we think of as creativity is just copying, transforming, and combining ideas. LLMs are interesting because that compression forces distilling the world down into its constituent parts and learning about the relationships between ideas. While it's absolutely possible (or even likely for certain prompts) that models can regurgitate text very similar to their inputs, that is not usually what seems to be happening. They actually appear to be little remix engines that can fit the pieces together to solve the thing you're asking for, and we do have some evidence that the models are able to accomplish things that are not represented in their training sets. Kirby Ferguson's video on this is pretty great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9RYuvPCQUA | | |
| ▲ | martin-t 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | So? Why should it be legal? If people find this cool and wanna play with it, they can, just make sure to only mix compatible licenses in the training data and license the output appropriately. Well, the attribution issue is still there, so maybe they can restrict themselves to public domain stuff. If LLMs are so capable, it shouldn't limit the quality of their output too much. Now for the real issue: what do you think the world will look like in 5 or 10 years if LLMs surpass human abilities in all areas revolving around text input and output? Do you think the people who made it possible, who spent years of their life building and maintaining open source code, will be rewarded? Or will the rich reap most of the benefit while also simultaneously turning us into beggars? Even if you assume 100% of the people doing intellectual work now will convert to manual work (i.e. there's enough work for everyone) and robots don't advance at all, that'll drive the value of manual labor down a lot. Do you have it games out in your head and believe somehow life will be better for you, let alone for most people? Or have yo not thought about it at all yet? |
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| ▲ | timmmmmmay 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | fortunately, you aren't only operating on representations, right? lemme check my Schopenhauer right quick... |
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