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helo4362 3 hours ago

What option is there for israel.

King-Aaron 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe not systematically murdering civilians and stealing their land and homes every day might be a start. Baby steps.

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

https://www.hamas-massacre.net

Saline9515 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Of course, Israel is a pure white dove. For instance, they have rallies for "the right to rape prisoners" (and recently to kill them) [0]. Or to willingly mutilate peaceful protesters presenting no risk[1].

The problem is that the total lack of moral limits in Israel only forces their opponents to escalate, or accept to be treated like animals (in the case of the West Bank Palestinians). It also affects the US, since that they have to follow along with Israel' way of doing the war (mainly, war crimes).

[0]: https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2024/8/13/israeli-p...

[1]: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-ma...

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh no they are a rotten old pigeon as well and I don't disagree.

What I object to is the "freedom fighters" being painted with moral virtue when they are raping murdering bastards.

Saline9515 an hour ago | parent [-]

The problem is that once a party starts to commit atrocities, all others tend to do it. Atrocities by Israel are not new, and Israel has a long history about it, since its inception:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread

Rather than deshumanizing parties, deescalation is needed to achieve peace. And an end of the US support to Israel.

kergonath 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is the consequence of a long-term policy. Israel made sure the Palestinian authority was sidelined and helped Hamas get full control of the Gaza Strip. History did not start in October 2023.

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes I am aware of the full history of the Middle East back to the middle ages...

The problem really kicked off after the Ottoman reform (Tanzimat) period.

close04 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We call Hamas "terrorists" for far less than Israel's actions.

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Brain damage there?

close04 2 hours ago | parent [-]

For sure my "genocide supporting" brain center took critical damage and is not operational.

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

As we're talking absolutes clearly, was the Nova music festival massacre justified resistance?

close04 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> was the Nova music festival massacre justified resistance

Intentionally killing civilians is never justified. But this still makes Palestine/Hamas the (much) smaller genocidal terrorist in this conflict. Free people don't need freedom fighters ;).

Now, I have no horse in this race, I am not related to any of the peoples involved, and live far away. I'm just the voice that finds genocide wrong. You on the other hand look like you're happily riding the terrorist, genocidal horse. I don't expect anything from you in terms of quality debate.

throwaw12 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

no massacre is justified, but can you remind us how and where did Hamas get helicopters and tanks and all of a sudden all cars were smashed? maybe Hannibal directive handed them over their tanks

bongripper 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

andy_ppp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fair. Clearly they need the land back GOD gave them 3000 years ago.

helo4362 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean realistically what peaceful propsals are there. Every neighbour country is threating what else they can do.

zelphirkalt 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As a first step they could give back some of their illegal settlements. Then over time give back more, until they are back in UN recognized borders. That would be a start. They could also start to persecute violent mobs that chased people out of their own homes and the people in the military covering them. They could also release unjustifiably imprisoned people.

You know, things that basic human decency would demand of them.

nielsbot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The best plan is one democratic state from the river to the sea for all peoples governed by the Israel government.

> Every neighbour country is threating what else they can do.

See above. When Israel finally stops trying to be a Jewish supremacist state things can finally start getting better.

Matl 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Has it ever entered your mind that maybe it is actually Israel that is threatening every other country?

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Israel remembers the Six-Day War...

kergonath 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The war started by Israel, ostensibly as a retaliation for a dispute about a bit of water, which Israel used as a pretext to invade the West Bank? What about it?

lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does that give a perpetual licence to kill, or do we try something productive at some point?

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The only productive solution is to get rid of all religious ideology out there (both sides).

Good luck.

Matl 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The 'both sides' thing when one side is occupying the other is pathetic. There's only one side that needs to stop the occupation immediately, the Israeli one. We can go from there.

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah remember when they left Gaza in 2005. What happened then?

lostlogin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They levelled it, tens of thousands killed.

Matl 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Everyone remembers The Nakba. Or the Suez Crisis

And?

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Nakba - Entirely the result of Ottoman foreign policy, WW1, WW2, League of Nations being a total fuck up.

Suez Crisis - Egypt being dicks

Six Day War - attacked from all sides.

Bit of a contrast, no?

nielsbot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Re-integration. One democratic state "from the river to the sea". And leave the neighboring states alone.

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This comment is exactly why there is no hope out there. Literally zero understanding of middle-Eastern geopolitics other than trite slogans.

Come on. Do you think everyone is going to suddenly start holding hands and singing kumbaya? Or more realistically, like nearly every other surrounding state it'll be the elimination and exodus of Jews and Israelis?

lostlogin 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Carpet bombing, artillery and gunfire hasn’t brought peace, but maybe the next salvo will, right?

dgxyz 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Ballistic rockets and massacring people at music festivals don't either.

There's no moral high ground here so don't even pretend there is one.

Saline9515 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://archive.ph/Gsw1y

Hamas didn't have prior knowledge of the festival, and partygoers were also murdered by the Israeli army. And in general flattening entire cities don't leave their habitants very keen toward Israel either. It just reinforces the cycle of aggression, which allows Israel to take more land.

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

So that's ok then?

Saline9515 an hour ago | parent [-]

No it's not ok, if the goal is peace and not the achievement of the "Greater Israel" that the current religious far-right in power is pursuing, with the support of the zionist christians in the US.

close04 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a crazy way to defend an ongoing genocide. The scale is so different that the only way to miss it is willful bad faith.

How long and how far do you go with that justification? Does it work the other way too? Are "their" actions justified forever because of something wrong that was done to them? Can anyone in the world do to you anything and everything forever if they were ever wronged by someone born in the same general geographic area as you?

Whenever you find yourself defending any genocide, under any excuse, defending the killing of innocent children because some other guys from the same general area also killed people, you are the bigger problem and no amount of fresh accounts justifying it makes you better.

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I didn't defend. I just pointed out that the "freedom fighters" in everyone's minds are raping murdering bastards and I refuse to take a moral position and support or defend them for it.

That in itself is an abhorrent position and I am disgusted at anyone who takes it.

And further extrapolation as you edited it, if a child has a gun pointing at your head and has been trained to fire it at you, which is exactly what they have been doing, then they are legally combatants. But it makes a good statistical and PR job which is just as abhorrent. Legally and statistically speakingh, children... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD2FezhJgqA

I would not do this to MY children.

Saline9515 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I just pointed out that the "freedom fighters" in everyone's minds are raping murdering bastards

So, like Israeli soldiers?[0]

> if a child has a gun pointing at your head and has been trained to fire it at you, which is exactly what they have been doing

Israelis do exactly the same[1]

As long as Israelis rely on violence, war crimes and human rights violations, there can be no deescalation. We see it in the current ceasefire, where Israelis refused to stop their annexation war (and flattening) of Liban.

[0]https://www.aljazeera.com/video/newsfeed/2024/8/13/israeli-p...

[1]https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170708-israel-gives-sett...

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

See my other comments. I'm not defending them either.

I am defending facts and stating there is no moral high ground.

Saline9515 an hour ago | parent [-]

Yes, although Israel has the power to deescalate, but hasn't done it. They also have a lot more power to inflict suffering to civilian populations.

So complaining about it while continuing to bomb civilians with white phosphore is rather hypocritical and cruel.

close04 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I didn't defend.

Didn't you?

> if a child has a gun pointing at your head

That sure sounds like defending the killing of children because for sure they were all holding a gun and trying to kill you. Including the babies.

If you show all the YouTube videos in the world, the moment when you find a justification to kill any innocent children is when you become irreversibly the problem.

dgxyz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No I didn't.

Your second point literally makes no sense and is based on the straw man that babies are holding guns where I made no point even related to that or collateral kills (which are unacceptable). Secondarily my point is based on internationally legal definitions of combatant and evidenced with a video of combatants being trained. Not like the UN and UNICEF haven't been all over this for decades.

Don't use child soldiers and you won't get statistically significant child casualties.

bongripper 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

nslsm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This has been happening to Jews everywhere they’ve been since the dawn of time. Maybe some introspection would help.

ComposedPattern 2 hours ago | parent [-]

...

Are you saying that it's Jews themselves who are to blame for having been killed or exiled from numerous places?

amunozo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's so sad to see this ridiculous argument every time. Israel is the aggressor, the murder and the main threat to the region's peace, not the victim. This, of course, does not mean that Iran is not another threat, but its actions seem like nothing compared to what Israel is doing.

patates 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stop the immortality project and stop the massive suffering happening right now. People should really read "The Denial of Death".

blurbleblurble 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Please share more

patates 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Pasting from Wikipedia:

> Becker argues that a basic duality in human life exists between the physical world of objects and biology, and a symbolic world of human meaning. Thus, since humanity has a dualistic nature consisting of a physical self and a symbolic self, we are able to transcend the dilemma of mortality by focusing our attention mainly on our symbolic selves, i.e. our culturally based self esteem, which Becker calls "heroism": a "defiant creation of meaning" expressing "the myth of the significance of human life" as compared to other animals. This counters the personal insignificance and finitude that death represents in the human mind.

> Such symbolic self-focus takes the form of an individual's "causa sui project", (sometimes called an "immortality project", or a "heroism project"). A person's "causa sui project" acts as their immortality vessel, whereby they subscribe to a particular set of culturally-created meanings and through them gain personal significance beyond that afforded to other mortal animals. This enables the individual to imagine at least some vestige of those meanings continuing beyond their own life-span; thus avoiding the complete "self-negation" we perceive when other biological creatures die in nature.

You can find big similarities such as the promised land as the immortality vessel, heroism as a response to historical trauma and the ongoing attacks on their sovereignty, and the immortality project would be the nation-state. Becker goes on to categorize all of this similar to a mental illness. You can read the wikipedia page here, I find it very helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

TL;DR: If you look through Becker's lens, you start to realize how stupid such wars and expansionist ideals seem. People should focus on what exists now and stop chasing projects that'd span beyond their lifetimes while making life today worse.

surgical_fire 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Perhaps not be a genocidaire apartheid state?

rcbdev 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The only endgame I see for the region is sadly the complete and utter annihilation of all civilizations there, possibly through nuclear means.

I do not say this lightly and I say it with a deep sadness in my heart for the people of the middle east, but also with the sober realization that this is the only end of the path that is currently walked.

littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There's a much less grim end, probably coming at short term:

If the US stop giving unconditional blank check support to Israel, then the nuisance power of the Jewish supremacists there disappears overnight. The US popular support for Israel is now at an all time low, and the recent war may be the straw that breaks the Camel's back.

All that's needed to stabilize the region is some amount of pushback to the destabilizing country here. Iran have been a destabilizing force for the past decade, but since 2023 Israel is by far the biggest threat to the region, and it's mostly due to Netanyahu's political survival relying on the state of perpetual war he's put the country in.

Should the US put even a modicum amount of pressure to Israel (or even just declare they wouldn't support them should the EU put economic sanctions on Israel), then the current cabinet collapse, Netanyahu ends up in prison for corruption and the middle east is stable for a decade.

All of this madness is happening because the US enables a madman to escape his own judicial system through foreign wars.

frm88 2 hours ago | parent [-]

All of this madness is happening because the US enables a madman to escape his own judicial system through foreign wars.

All of this madness is happening because the US enables two+ madmen to escape their own judicial system through foreign wars.

Fixed it.

littlestymaar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

In fairness, it's the Biden administration who gave Netanyahu the blank check first.

Having another mad man at the head of the US makes the issue worse, but even impeaching him wouldn't solve the problem on its own.