After America attacked them, sure, and in any case they aren't even attacking America, so again, why is America involved?

▲ igorramazanov 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My personal opinion is that, it's because with the previous political and cultural trends, West had (maybe still has) actually quite high chances of collapsing and falling in the long term due to its own indecisiveness, lots of words mixed a lack of actions against coordinated and targeted efforts of Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, Cuba, China, Syria and North Korea.

I remember national state TV in Russia talking about "we are ready to nuke United States if needed" in 2014 [1].

So, domestically, government made sure people believe that the West is the mortal enemy and we were are already at some kind of cold war since Crimea annexation, it's just West didn't notice, seems like.

Then, there were also artifical immigration crisis at EU borders created by Russia and Belarus.

And many other various hybrid and asymmetrical attacks.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA9mVLomYo8

So, USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece, to ensure a long term peace and safety of its people. Could it be better organized and coordinated with allies? Probably, yes, but the meaning stays.

	▲	graemep 3 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		If the west collapses it will be because of its internal problems. Inefficiency, bad government, inequality. I think you are right that the West is complacent about its enemies because it cannot really shake the belief in its superiority that came from winning the cold war and dominating the world in the decades after, I just do not think that is the biggest threat.
	▲	pjc50 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		> Russia, Iran, Venezuela, Belarus, Cuba, China, Syria and North Korea. Putting these all in the same list conflates very different situations. `- Big actual threat with body count: Russia. - Russian proxies: Syria (very lethal, but mostly within Syria, not a "threat to the west", complicated by Daesh and AQ) - Nasty autocracy but stable cold war: NK - Autocracy, but largely minding their own business and with no real capability to threaten: Cuba, Venezuela - Major trading partner: China` > USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece Trump era has systematically downplayed the threat from Russia. And let's not forget how many members of Trump campaign staff were jailed due to Russian influence.
	▲	jurgenburgen 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		> So, USA recognized the danger and started dismantling the problem piece by piece, to ensure a long term peace and safety of its people. Could it be better organized and coordinated with allies? Probably, yes, but the meaning stays. By becoming part of the problem? Trump threatening to invade Greenland was a wake-up call for Europe. Actively supporting forces that want to tear down democracy in Europe isn’t particularly helpful either. If we become like China and Russia then why is our civilization in any way better?

▲ 21asdffdsa12 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because Iran attacks them relentlessly by proxxy? Hoothis, Hezbullah, Hamas, etc. It also wars with the kurds and had some fun in afghanistan?

Iran is not passive - iran is active, a wannabe us (lets call it micro-satan) - that wants to do what russia did along its borders.

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vachina 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Still none of your business

	▲	baq 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Persian gulf is everyone’s business.

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throwaway25231 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How about USA proxies? Or are proxy wars just reserved for other party?

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mikkupikku 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Because Iran attacks them relentlessly by proxxy? Hoothis, Hezbullah, Hamas, etc

Iran doesn't use any of these to attack America. You seem to be confusing Israel for America, a common problem in American politics.

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gryzzly 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Iranian proxies are responsible for well over 1,000 American deaths since 1979, and there were dozens of foiled plots on American soil and hundreds of individual militia attacks in Iraq and Syria, directed by Iran.

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kdheiwns 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For reference, how many times has the US interfered with Iran's government and how many people in Iran has the US killed since 1979? That's the only way to get a fair view of this discussion. Just wondering if all this happened in a vacuum or, god forbid, Iran maybe has some reason to dislike the US.

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akdev1l 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

“What about…?” Does not make for a good argument.

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srean 2 hours ago | parent [-]

When the comment is a response to another that justifies current attacks on Iran because Irani proxies killed US, it matters a big F'ing deal that those were in retaliation of the US historically scuttling Iranian parliamentary democracy and killing 50K Iranians by way of chemical munitions alone through its proxy.

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akdev1l an hour ago | parent [-]

No it doesn’t.

The post was replying to this:

>Iran doesn't use any of these to attack America.

This is false, as the post explained.

Saying “what about the US attacking Iran?” does not change the above being false. In fact the US attacking Iran does not change the above false either.

Even if we accept both things as true:

1. Iran has historically attacked the US 2. The US has historically destabilized/attacked Iran

It doesn’t change the fact that “Iran does not use any of these (proxy groups) to attack America” is a false statement.

Skip me with your emotional arguments because I’ll just think you’re posturing and just trying to advance your agenda :-)

	▲	srean an hour ago \| parent [-]
		There is a difference between "attack" (that has a connotation of being unprovoked and in bad faith) and "retaliation" against acts of drawing first blood. More so if those primary attacks had 50K killed by way of proxies (100K according to more realistic estimates). Sometimes, what one dishes out, comes back. If it does, rest of the world thinks it is only fair. Yes Iran has been retaliating, very weakly, to counterbalanced attacks on itself by the US and its proxies. There is not much doubt on who acted in bad faith first.

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gryzzly 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

this was a reply to people saying "Iran is not attacking the US". It is of course convenient to bend this discussion into a different direction, but this was a reply to blind propaganda that sees only one side as responsible for bad things.

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curt15 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many Russian deaths have been caused by US proxies in Ukraine so far? Do those justify an attack on the US by Russia?

	▲	gryzzly 31 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		https://www.startpage.com/sp/search?q=US+proxies+in+Ukraine

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srean 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[To the downvoter, downvoting is not going to change the historical facts]

It was the US that upended Iranian parliamentary democracy with a military coup, sponsored chemical weapons attacks on Irani population (through its proxy Iraq). This killed some 30k to 50k by way of chemical attacks alone. Credible sources estimate 100K killed by these chemical weapons attacks alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against...

US shot down their passenger jet. US has imposed crippling sanctions that have decimated the economic well being of the country compared to what it could have been.

Iran Air Flight 655 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai via Bandar Abbas that was shot down on 3 July 1988 by two surface-to-air missiles fired by USS Vincennes, a United States Navy warship. The missiles hit the Iran Air aircraft, an Airbus A300, while it was flying its usual route over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, shortly after the flight departed its stopover location, Bandar Abbas International Airport. All 290 people on board were killed. No apologies yet.

Talking about Iranian proxies alone is one-sided if you don't consider what US-Israel proxies have been doing to them. US Israel have inflicted 10 to 100X more Irani deaths than what Iran has done in retaliation.

You are either ignorant or deliberately underplaying that. Most likely the latter.

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21asdffdsa12 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Only westerners can be bad actors or at all in historic events racism of the charts? It takes two to tango and iran is dancing its heart out.. and could have had the most peacefull life, if its religion would not involve destroying all "unbelievers" in the middle east - first and foremost aimed at israel.

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srean 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> if its religion would not involve destroying all "unbelievers" in the middle east -

That would be ultra orthodox zionists and illegal settlers that has been stealing land for decades now.

https://www.primevideo.com/detail/Louis-Theroux-The-Ultra-Zi...

An illuminating documentary. Everyone should give it a watch to understand the Zionist belief system.

There is very little room to doubt who the bad actor is and was. No matter how many canards you can try and thrust, how many attempts you make to color this as a religious holy war.

That the Islamic revolution was and is against Jews is a lie. In any case the Islamic revolution happened because of excesses by the US sponsored Shah who was put in charge after the US dismantled Iran's parliamentary democracy.

Even today Tehran hosts Dr. Sapir Hospital and Charity Center, a Jewish charity hospital, the largest charity among the religious minorities in Iran. It is doing well, thank you.

Ayatollah Khomeini himself wrote a personal note thanking the hospital for its help after the revolution succeeded.

Synagogues in Tehran are doing very well in the Islamic regime, thank you. Except for one that US+Israel bombed recently in Tehran.

This is in contrast to Israeli false flags, such as the Lavan affair and Baghdad synagogue bombings by Israel to drive a rift between Jews and the country they were residing in. Israel has a long documented history of bombing synagogues in other countries in false flag operations.

In fact Irani Jews have often criticized Israel when Israel has acted against Palestinians. Chief Rabbi of Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Gerami has denounced Zionist and Israeli policies.

https://www.csmonitor.com/1998/0203/020398.intl.intl.3.html

""" It comes as a surprise to many visitors to discover that Iran, a country so hostile to Israel and with a reputation for intolerance, is home to a small but vibrant Jewish community that is an officially recognized religious minority under Iran's 1979 Islamic Constitution.

"Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians," says Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran. """

	▲	21asdffdsa12 7 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Could he say anything else or other? He must sing the dhimi and hostage song for his life depends on it. I know what happens to the ghetto after the friday prayer. Pieces be upon the true believers..

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poisonarena 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The navy anti-drone team on my last 2 ships in the merchant marine would argue differently

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21asdffdsa12 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The us is the peace guarantor for maritime trade in the region. Its the protector of several oil powers. When the hoothi shoot on ships, they hit the us.

▲ JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they aren't even attacking America

America never invaded Greenland. Nevertheless, we're facing blowback because we threatened it.

Iran has been chanting "death to America" for decades. That isn't casus belli. Not by a long shot. But pretending Iran hasn't been playing the part of belligerent for years is rewriting history.

▲ SanjayMehta 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oil.

▲ gryzzly 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

1979-1981 - Tehran, Iran — 66 Americans held hostage 444 days

1983 Apr - Beirut, Lebanon — 17 Americans killed (U.S. Embassy bombing)

1983 Oct - Beirut, Lebanon — 241 U.S. military killed (Marine barracks bombing)

1984 Mar - Beirut, Lebanon — 1 American killed (CIA chief Buckley kidnapped, later killed)

1985 Jun - Beirut, Lebanon — 1 American killed (TWA Flight 847 hijacking)

1989 Jul - Lebanon — 1 American killed (Col. Higgins murdered)

1995 Apr - Gaza Strip — 1 American killed (car bomb)

1995 Aug - Jerusalem, Israel — 1 American killed, 100+ wounded (bus bombing)

1996 Feb - Jerusalem, Israel — 3 Americans killed, 3 wounded (bus bombing)

1996 Mar - Tel Aviv, Israel — 2 Americans killed (shopping center bombing)

1996 May - West Bank — 1 American killed, 1 wounded

1996 Jun - Khobar, Saudi Arabia — 19 Americans killed, ~500 wounded (Khobar Towers)

1997 Sep - Jerusalem, Israel — 1 American killed, 7 wounded (mall bombing)

1998 Aug - Nairobi/Dar es Salaam — 12 Americans killed, thousands wounded (embassy bombings)

2001 Sep - New York/Washington D.C. — Iran facilitated transit of hijackers (2,977 total killed)

2002 Jan - West Bank — 1 American killed

2002 Jul - Jerusalem, Israel — 5 Americans killed (Hebrew University bombing)

2003 Aug - Jerusalem, Israel — 5 Americans killed (bus bombing)

2003 Oct - Gaza Strip — 3 Americans killed (diplomatic convoy bombing)

2003-2011 - Iraq — 603 U.S. troops killed (Iranian-backed militia IED/EFP campaign)

2011 - Washington D.C. — 0 casualties (assassination plot on Saudi ambassador foiled)

2019 Jun - Strait of Hormuz — 0 casualties (U.S. Global Hawk drone shot down)

2019 Sep - Saudi Arabia — 0 American casualties (Abqaiq oil facility drone strike)

2019 Dec - Baghdad, Iraq — 0 casualties (U.S. Embassy stormed)

2020 Jan - Ain al-Assad, Iraq — 100+ U.S. troops with traumatic brain injuries (ballistic missile strike)

2021-2022 - Iraq/Syria — ongoing U.S. base attacks by Iranian-backed militias

2023 Oct-Nov - Iraq/Syria — 60+ attacks in Iraq, 90+ in Syria; scores of U.S. troops wounded

2024 Jan 28 - Tower 22, Jordan — 3 Americans killed, 34+ wounded (drone strike)

2024 - Red Sea/Yemen — ongoing Houthi drone/missile attacks on U.S. naval assets

2024 Nov - United States — 0 casualties (Trump assassination plot foiled)

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srean 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

30K to 50K Iranians killed by chemical weapons attacks by US proxy, Iraq. Credible sources estimate 100K killed and 30K-50K is a conservative lowball estimate.

This is an active unhealed wound in Iran. Families of the dead still grieve those killed in cemeteries and graves that are there in almost all their major cities.

Iran has every reason to not like the US which has been destabilising and killing and crippling them economically for several decades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_chemical_attacks_against...

No apologies have been forthcoming.

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curt15 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

History doesn't start in 1979. One can draw a direct line to those events from 1953.

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panja 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting you started in 1979 instead of 1953

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JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would be stronger with a source. Otherwise, it feels on the border of being potential AI slop.

	▲	gryzzly 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		[dead]