On one of Apollo missions they've read from Bible, Book of Genesis [1]. I wish they did something like that here - and I'm not even a Christian, let alone religious. They did relay some beautiful message [2] though.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4tDZye57D4

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELslc6O4UVk

▲ groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

no shared values exist to draw upon.

▲ delecti 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I sure hope they don't. Even just the hint of connecting this achievement to the supposed Christian nature of the US would reinforce a lot of the bad things in the world right now. Namely, that we're actively at war in the middle east (Christianity and Judaism vs Islam), in a burgeoning cold war with China (more Christianity vs "godless" communists), and run by an increasingly fascistic administration (the ties between religion and government are a hallmark of fascism).

▲ dotancohen 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am not a Christian, but it was arguably the Christian value system which forged the government and institutions that made these achievements possible. Such progress happens only in high trust societies.

▲ jedberg 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> but it was arguably the Christian value system which forged the government and institutions that made these achievements possible.

Many of the founders were specifically anti-Christian. They were deists, and believed in a higher power, but specifically rejected the idea of a divine intervention of God or Jesus.

Christians do not own the idea of being nice to others and trusting others.

▲ TimTheTinker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Of the 45 delegates to the continental congress, only two (Benjamin Franklin and another) were known to be deists. One's membership records couldn't be found. The other 42 were active members and on the books in their churches.[0]

Jefferson also was a deist, but he wasn't present at the constitutional convention of 1787 (though he earlier authored the Declaration of Independence).

[0] M. E. Bradford. Founding Fathers: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution, second edition. University Press of Kansas, 1994.

	▲	TimTheTinker 37 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		typo - *55 delegates attended the constitutional congress, 52 of which were on the church registers as active church members. note: only 39 delegates signed the resulting document

▲ dotancohen 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I stated that the United States is based on Christian values. Not that the United States is a Christian state.

Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? Witnesses at trial? Tolerance of alternative viewpoints?

Those are all Christian values. For what it's worth, I'm not Christian.

▲ JumpCrisscross 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> stated that the United States is based on Christian values. Not that the United States is a Christian state

I believe most of the founders expressed disdain at the notion that the United States was built on Christian values. They were privately Christian. But publicly American. They were trying to break the cycle of history that building countries on religious values brings.

Saying we were built on Christian values is arguing for a continuing role for Christian values. Which, in turn, leads to a Christian state. And then we’re back to popes and mullahs in charge, and the SecDef and Speaker of the House giving sermons.

▲ jedberg 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I stated that the United States is based on Christian values. Not that the United States is a Christian state.

And I said:

> Christians do not own the idea of being nice to others and trusting others.

But let's look at your list:

> Do you value separation of state and religious authority? Women's rights? Minority rights? Human dignity? Equality before the law? Sanctity of life? Individual moral responsibility? Monogamous marriage? The objective study of history? Fair trial? Witnesses at trial? Tolerance of alternative viewpoints?

First of all, these are all Jewish values that Christian's adopted. And secondly, none of these are exclusive to Christianity. In fact they appear in many religions worldwide, as well as secular societies.

These are all just common decency, which is why they appear in most religions, and non-religions.

	▲	dotancohen 3 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		`> These are all just common decency, which is why they appear in most religions, and non-religions.` You and I both wish these decencies were common. Some cultures have some variations on some of these decencies, but they are not common. Assuming that they are common is projecting your culture onto others. This is why I mentioned the importance of high trust society.
	▲	TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Christian values are always whatever individual Christians say they are. There's really no such animal in practice. Over time Christian values have included charity for the poor, rapacious capitalism, slavery, the abolition of slavery, anti-science, science, war, peace, and the rest.

▲ 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[deleted]

▲ satvikpendem 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Renaissance and Enlightenment were anti-religious ideals, of the power of mankind over the gods.

▲

dotancohen 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, exactly. Being anti-religion does not mean throwing away the entire value system.

	▲	JumpCrisscross 9 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> Being anti-religion does not mean throwing away the entire value system It does mean being deeply sceptical of anyone importing a religious value system, or building religious institutions.

▲ mempko 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actually a lot of the enlightenment ideas (which our government is based on) came from native American critiques of European societies. Read The Dawn of Everything for the details.

	▲	JumpCrisscross 10 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		This is a bold claim that would do better than a throwaway source.

▲ Ylpertnodi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suggest you look up the founding fathers' views on religion.

▲ dotancohen 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I was addressing values, not religion, but I seem to have touched a nerve. I'm not Christian, but I recognize that Christian values lead to high-trust society, leads to innovation in industry and science.

  > I suggest you look up the founding fathers' views on religion

Alright:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports."

  - George Washington

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

  - George Washington

"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

  - John Adams

"The Bible contains the most profound philosophy, the most perfect morality, and the most refined policy that ever was conceived upon Earth."

  - John Adams

"I hold the precepts of Jesus, as delivered by himself, to be the most pure, benevolent, and sublime which have ever been preached to man."

  - Thomas Jefferson

"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever."

  - Thomas Jefferson

	▲	hackable_sand 5 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Bro this comment chain is so fucked up Well done

▲ eatsyourtacos 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The "Christian value system" isn't something to revere.

▲ pigpop 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm more worried about Chinese fascism than the American kind.

	▲	throwaway25231 4 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Can you explain what "Chinese fascism" is? Not citizen of any super-power, but how can you be sure you're not fallen under some propaganda where you see "them" as being evil and not just some other-way-of-living?
	▲	delecti 4 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		China may be authoritarian (I would agree that they are), but they're not fascist. They're also a much smaller threat to anyone living in the US. I'm more worried about the jackbooted thugs on my own streets than the ones halfway around the world.