We're not having this conversation in a cultural vacuum; men figure out at a young age that if things go to shit, their lives become expendable for the sake of the community. I view conscription as a form of slavery; something that I hope never happens to me or anybody, but could conceivably happen. That's the way the world has worked for thousands of years, and the Bayesian meme asks me to therefore bet on it continuing to be this way. But it doesn't have to be this way for women too. Why should it be, misery loves company? If men are going to be dying, we should draft women to die too? That's not feminism, that's insanity.

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machomaster 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Why should men sacrifice and die for nothing, by not getting anything in return, not even a simple appreciation? Why should only men die when things get tough? I also would much rather see other unknown women die, than to send myself or my son to die for them.

Women need to pull their weight. And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder. The more women start pulling their weight and contribute, the less weight there will be for men to pull. What not to love about this equality!

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samus 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The right reaction about bad things happening to a percentage of the population is to get rid of it if at all possible, not making everybody suffer from it.

If you don't expect males to voluntarily sacrifice and die for the country, why would you expect women to suffer nine months of body horror (provocatively stated) and expend multiple years of full-time care to raise children?

> And since they aren't doing that from the evolutional POV, neither in practice (birth crisis) nor in theory (not like giving birth is a legal duty, unlike a draft), then they can at least be useful for a society as a cannon fodder.

Women already contribute to society by being in the work force. If you think that's not enough, then you should probably think about rewarding them for doing something else.

	▲	machomaster 15 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> The right reaction about bad things happening to a percentage of the population is to get rid of it if at all possible, not making everybody suffer from it. This is not an argument, neither from theoretical nor practical point of view. This is akin to saying "Yeah, you want a universal health care for everyone, but I want everybody to be so rich that they can buy any insurance and bear any sudden health-costs". Not an argument, is it. The reality is the way it is. Wars are always going to be fought and no amount of toxic peace wishing will change that. If anything, adding women to the equation would: 1. make the force stronger. Therefore, a higher probability of not being attacked, and a higher probability of dominating the enemy (thus decreasing the total amount of victims). 2. make the political decisions to start wars much harder (in a good way). This is exactly the reason why I am against the current American fight-for-money military and am for compulsory army service (like Finland), and for both sexes at that. > If you don't expect males to voluntarily sacrifice and die for the country, why would you expect women to suffer nine months of body horror (provocatively stated) and expend multiple years of full-time care to raise children? That's my point exactly. If women are not doing their evolutionary job, why should men? There can only be 2 possible solutions: 1. no sex has any sex-specific obligations (be it giving birth or going to war) 2. or impose similar sex-specific obligations to both sexes. Men already contribute to society by being in the work force (and do a much more important foundational work than women), and it is unfair to impose additional unilateral sexist obligations on only one sex.

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AlexeyBelov 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What not to love about this equality!

Are you really for equality? Did you support women in this for the last couple of decades? Please be honest.

	▲	machomaster 14 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I am against the hypocrisy and want equality between sexes (they don't have to be the same for both sexes, but if one has more obligations, they should be appropriately compensated by additional rights/privileges). My morals are not that hard to understand.

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salawat a day ago | parent | prev [-]

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	▲	machomaster 14 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> Because a bunch of pissed off men is destabilizing, and what has worked in the past is sending them off to conquer/die under some glory laced pretense. Such was the way in the old times. At the same time when women were taking their own feminine role and were giving birth. But this does not apply anymore. Check the population pyramids for various countries. Having a lot of young men that need their energy to be put somewhere is not a problem in modern Western societies.
	▲	rdevilla a day ago \| parent \| prev [-]
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atmavatar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> That's not feminism, that's insanity.

No, it's equality.

Taken to its logical conclusion, you cannot have gender equality without either making the draft cover everyone or abolishing it entirely.

The fact that women losing their lives is so much larger a risk for the nation only serves to test the resolve of those people claiming to want gender equality, but this is not the only time you'll find a conflict between idealism and reality, even within the scope of gender equality.

	▲	snovymgodym 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		It would be equality if there were a law forcing women to have children during a war. Which is insane and no one would support it. But young men maybe dying after being forced to fight against their will? Completely fine. It's honestly just very telling how in modern Western egalitarianism, gender essentialism is factually wrong and evil unless we're explaining why men need to die for their country.
	▲	randomNumber7 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Even if you draft women a men can not shit a child.