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jmyeet 2 hours ago

Short answer? No:

> Nuclear development is a long-term project, not a short-term fix to current energy insecurity.

Long answer? Still no. Flamanville [1] took 15 years (1o over estimate) and the cost was five times what was projected. Hinkley Point-C [2] is first projected to come online in 2030 (18 years after commencement) and the costs will at least double. Both are mentioned in the article.

The amortized cost of nuclear power makes it among the most expensive forms of electricity generation. And they take forever to build. Not a single nuclear power plants (of the ~700 built in the world) has been built without significant government contributions. And they won't get cheaper. SMR (also mentioned in the article) doesn't make sense. Nuclear plants are better when they're bigger. SMR is just another way of extracting money from the government for dead end research.

Europe as a whole has a history of colonialism. This is the basic for European social democracies: offshorting their problems and costs onto the Global South. They've taken the same approach with energy. In the 2010s, Europe outsourced its energy security to Russia and that has had obvious conseequences for Ukraine.

This was actually an incredibly rare W for the first Trump administration: in 2018 the administration warned Europe of the dangers of Russian gas and badgered Germany into building an LNG port with the Trump-Juncker agreement [3]. This was both correct and fortuitous after Europe suddenly needed to import a lot of LNG from 2022.

Europe also outsources its security to the United States and that's partly why they're in this mess now. Europe is suffering for providing material aid to a war of choice in Iran that they didn't consent to or otherwise want. The article mentions the issue of finding money for defence spending to meet US demands. That's money primarily for US defense contractors. You think that might be an issue?

Renewables, particularly wind and solar, are the path forward. As is divorcing itself from being a US vassal state.

A lot of Europe's policies come down to the failed austerity policies after 2008. Taxing wealth and barring profit shifting to low-tax jurisdictions is the path forward here, not strangling ever-decreasing social safety nets. Austerity is corporate welfare for banks.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plan...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_Point_C_nuclear_power_...

[3]: https://www.csis.org/analysis/us-lng-europe-after-trump-junc...

jemmyw 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Although I'm not a huge proponent of nuclear power over renewables, I'm not sure the overruns in those projects are a good argument. These projects become hard to cost and understand up front because so few are built. If the UK built 10 then the costs would come down and the knowledge and experience would grow.

jacquesm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's the problem: the cost doesn't really go down. You can only operate nuclear if you guarantee the prices a decade ahead. That's just not realistic and the end result is that you'll end up subsidizing ever KWh produced and then you still have to factor in decommissioning costs. Nuclear is fantastic technology, but we can do so much better.

pfdietz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They're hard to cost, which means that the numbers that are given are more aspirational than realistic. It's in the interest of those touting projects to be as optimistic as is tolerable when the estimate costs -- and everyone expects them to do this, so if they didn't and were more realistic they'd go nowhere.

jmyeet 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Cost overruns are a great argument even if you ignore the massive time overruns, which you can't. All those cost overruns factor into the electricty price forever. Flamanville has a 60 year lifespan for this reason and even then has an estimated cost of €138/MWh [1]. Compare that to Cestas at €108/MWh [2].

Go further south and Spain has recently been paying €25/MWh [3].

[1]: https://www.powermag.com/flamanville-3-europes-hard-won-nucl...

[2]: https://www.reuters.com/article/markets/currencies/new-frenc...

[3]: https://ratedpower.com/blog/spanish-government-solar/

amarant 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Compare it to Swedish electricity prices in the winter which are around SEK 3/kWh, or roughly €300/MWh.

Are you offering to cut my energy bill in half? Yes please!

seer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it worth the price of energy sovereignty though? You are not just buying electricity, you are buying future independence. It might be worth it if you factor that in.

And don’t forget all the other expertise that comes from being a country that is able to build reliable nuclear reactors. China is _the_ production superpower not just because it can build x or y, it’s because it has all the supply chains to be able to do it at scale.

If a country invests into that expertise - you get a lot of very capable engineers, a lot of tech and supply chains to deal with making it all happen, again and again, at scale. That in itself would be something that can offset the raw “price” of a single reactor, though it is very hard to quantify.

Like how much has USA actually lost by relinquishing its historical role of guarding international trade? Maybe it won some independence, but maybe the upstream effects to its economy would be bad?

We don’t know for sure about nuclear, but when a similar scientific project was put on a national scale - the space race - USA got silicon valley out of it.

OneDonOne 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Has Germant's Energewiende helped with solving this energy issue?

croes 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Given how much the administration under Merkel tried to block it: yes

stop50 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And by the money the energy companies made by keeping some of the fossil plants alive.

croes an hour ago | parent [-]

Guess who created that pricing model?

someotherperson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Renewables, particularly wind and solar, are the path forward

You missed the asterisk where endless dependence on coal, gas or oil is a non-optional requirement.

Who the hell cares if nuclear is expensive to get going? Plenty of things cost a lot - healthcare, social spending, roads, all of it. Those war machines that exist to prop up the fossil fuel industry cost a pretty penny as well. It's only when we get to nuclear that the talking point becomes cost. If governments don't even want to provide energy independence then perhaps they should end the slavery they call income tax.

pfdietz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You missed the asterisk where endless dependence on coal, gas or oil is a non-optional requirement.

Please don't lie like this. Renewables do not require endless dependence on fossil fuels.

someotherperson 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah yes, the sun shines at night and wind comes from trees. If you can name a country using solar and wind that isn't dependent on fossil fuels I'd love to hear about it.

croes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Who the hell cares if nuclear is expensive to get going? The people care.

The only things that ever comes up in elections about energy is the price.

But let’s ignore the price.

There is still no long time storage for the nuclear waste.

And even if we ignore that. People are worried about drones flying over airports. Wait when drones fly over nuclear power plants.

I don’t hear much worries in wars that rockets could hit a WEC.

Talking about energy independence, what do you think where the nuclear fuel comes from?

BTW if you don’t want to pay the membership fee of a country aka taxes, you’re free to leave

someotherperson an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> The only things that ever comes up in elections about energy is the price.

Yeah, because solar and wind are both expensive and unreliable, and fossil fuels are both expensive and destructive. The point is that the price isn't worth it.

> There is still no long time storage for the nuclear waste.

This is a non-argument, just like it was last year.

> And even if we ignore that. People are worried about drones flying over airports. Wait when drones fly over nuclear power plants.

2026, new argument dropped. Almost as much of a non-argument as the one above.

> Talking about energy independence, what do you think where the nuclear fuel comes from?

There's uranium everywhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_r... and it's not much more of a search away to find out who already refines it.

> BTW if you don’t want to pay the membership fee of a country aka taxes, you’re free to leave

The membership fee isn't giving up your money, the membership fee is participating in improving the country. It's this backwards ethos that has most European countries in the toilet.

croes an hour ago | parent [-]

> Yeah, because solar and wind are both expensive and unreliable, and fossil fuels are both expensive and destructive.

Compared to nuclear energy wind and solar are cheap. For reliability we need energy storage

> This is a non-argument, just like it was last year.

That doesn’t make any sense. It’s a problem and it isn’t solved. Or let me use your logic: it’s a problem like it was last year.

> 2026, new argument dropped. Almost as much of a non-argument as the one above.

Yeah sure, safety isn’t an argument.

>There's uranium everywhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_uranium_r... and it's not much more of a search away to find out who already refines it.

Another safety issue plus environmental damage for mining.

> The membership fee isn't giving up your money, the membership fee is participating in improving the country.

A membership fee is literally giving up money. PV put power in the hand of people. That is participation and independence.

> It's this backwards ethos that has most European countries in the toilet.

Nuclear energy is backwards. Why invest in something that is dangerous, slow, expensive and creates centralized energy sources?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> But let’s ignore the price

I mean, European energy policy in a nutshell.

croes an hour ago | parent [-]

Quite the opposite. That‘s why Russian gas was such a big factor.

More like let’s ignore the long term consequences

unethical_ban 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not arguing that solar+wind are more and more viable and economical.

But there's a weird juxtaposition here: You criticize the fact that nuclear power must be subsidized to be accomplished, but support strong social safety nets. To me, relative energy independence is a core societal goal and nuclear is a hell of a lot better than coal or oil or NG. It still requires fissile material, though.

dotcoma 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It requires 15 years from plan to energy being produced, at best. We don’t have all that time.

serial_dev 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The best time to plant a tree was 15 years ago. The second best time is now.

jimbob45 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

in 2018 the administration warned Europe of the dangers of Russian gas and badgered Germany into building an LNG port with the Trump-Juncker agreement

I don’t know how fair that is. Modern leaders looked at Appeasement in pre-WW2 and thought they could pull it off by tying their economies to that of their enemy so that war would be ruinous for both. It didn’t work but only because we now know China is bankrolling Russia’s sham economy.