| I mean, that sort of already did happen quickly in Feb 2022, with contracts a lot more significant than open source software... like when leases for 400 commercial jets were terminated over night, and Russia responded by seizing them. And the US started seizing yachts, real estate, and bank accounts of oligarchs. I'm not in favor of ignoring licenses, but practically speaking, they require legal nexus to function. |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >It's not like Russia currently respects the Rule of Law. but... we do? the argument is apparently that we also should ignore the rule of law. i dont think that would be a great idea for society, but i am just some dude. | | |
| ▲ | stackghost 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The argument is that we should only obey the rule of law with counterparties who reciprocate, rather than voluntarily hamstring ourselves for no benefit other than moral purity. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | right, damn pesky morals are always hamstringing human progress. my thinking is that once you start selectively applying rule of law to "good guys" and "bad guys" (or whatever criteria you pick), you have lost something really important. fingers crossed no one ever alters the criteria such that you fall on the "wrong" side! | | |
| ▲ | stackghost 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >my thinking is that once you start selectively applying rule of law to "good guys" and "bad guys" (or whatever criteria you pick), This is how the world already works. We do not inhabit an egalitarian utopia. There quite literally are bad guys. When you treat everyone like good guys, you end up with Donald Trump as the president instead of in jail. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai an hour ago | parent [-] | | i did not expect people to advocate for ignoring licenses, and further, arguing that the rule of law should be selectively applied. but, i am too old to expend energy trying to convince people that the rule of law loses all meaning if it is selectively applied. so, sure, fuck licenses. if someone pisses you off, just say they were born in the wrong country and steal their shit. thankfully i am retiring soon, so i probably wont see the winners of this race to the bottom. | | |
| ▲ | kube-system an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I think you're entirely right. I also think that what you're warning about is already in the past, due to the practicalities of globalization. There are so many laws around the world that apply to "websites", that currently, you can't operate any sort of online presence anymore without at least implicitly picking and choosing which laws on the planet that you're going to follow. Nobody hires hundreds of lawyers in every country of the world to comply with every website law on the planet, and if you did, I bet you'd find you probably can't practically operate one. For example, the forum that we're on right now, doesn't comply with this law (although I believe HN blocks China anyway): https://www.cac.gov.cn/2022-06/17/c_1657089000974111.htm In reality, people hire a lawyer in the jurisdictions where they have legal exposure and follow those laws. This isn't to say that you should ignore software licenses, but rather sometimes, they're toothless instruments. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | there is some interesting and nuanced discussion to be had with your main point, but >This isn't to say that you should ignore software licenses, [...] the main/only reason that i started this comment chain, and continued it, is that the other commenters are saying you should (if they are from the "wrong" country, anyways). |
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| ▲ | stackghost an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >i did not expect people to advocate for ignoring licenses > am too old to expend energy trying to convince people that the rule of law loses all meaning if it is selectively applied. Again, for what feels like the third or fourth time, this is already happening all over the globe. It's an open secret, for example, that the AI companies trained their models on pirated textbooks. It's not even an open secret, just the bare-faced truth, that the AI companies trained and continue to train on source-available software without regards for license. It's common knowledge that Russian and Chinese companies (among others) benefit from state-sponsored corporate espionage and sanctioned software piracy. The Rule of Law is dead in many countries, including the United States. There's literally nothing to be gained by not following suit. You can't pay your rent with ethics. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >Again, for what feels like the third or fourth time, this is already happening all over the globe. this is weird logic. scams happen every minute of every day all over the globe, i do not advocate for more people to scam. >It's an open secret, for example, that the AI companies trained their models on pirated textbooks. yeah, and that was wrong. >You can't pay your rent with ethics. this is a sad sentence. | | |
| ▲ | stackghost 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >this is a sad sentence. I don't disagree, but I'm talking about the real world that we inhabit, not the fictional idealized world we wistfully discuss in classrooms. The world is a shitty place full of shitty people. Being an idealist is just asking to be taken advantage of. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >fictional idealized world we wistfully discuss in classrooms. you can live in the real world without stealing software from people and justifying it because they were born in the "wrong" country. i have done it my entire life. "two wrongs dont make a right" is a pretty simple rule to live by, even in the real world. perhaps unsurprisingly, it is also good for ones mental health. |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | china also uses child labor, and are doing just fine. shall we adopt that practice as well? different in severity, but same logic. | | |
| ▲ | deaux 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Completely irrelevant. > the entire fabric deteriorates quickly afterwards. It just disproves this entirely. China has been at it for decades, which entire fabric has detoriated? Have licenses been meaningless for decades because of the existence of China? | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | >which entire fabric has detoriated? the moral fabric of not stealing software and ignoring licenses. >Have licenses been meaningless for decades because of the existence of China? uh, in china? apparently yes! if that is how you want the rest of the world to operate too, that is your opinion. i think it will suck, but whatever. selectively applied law is fun when the laws are selectively applied against people you dont like. just gotta make sure you never get put in the wrong pile. | | |
| ▲ | deaux 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Adherence to licenses is completely meaningless if it's a one-way street. The whole concept of them is based on reciprocality. Since there's zero chance a Russian court is going to hold up a Western entity's complaint about a Russian entity's violation of their license, reciprocality is dead. This is a very mainstream concept so I'm not sure why you're so worked up about it. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >This is a very mainstream concept so I'm not sure why you're so worked up about it. i am not worked up, but that is a good attempt at undermining my point by coming at me personally instead of my words. |
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