Safeway won’t starve and die if I decide to buy from Fred Meyer. You really don’t see that an individual is not on equal footing with multibillion company? It is absolutely immoral. And I’m not even talking about charity, those people were hired and did actual job for the fucking trillion dollar company.

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WalterBright 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Several grocery stores in Seattle have closed recently. The same with local Starbucks outlets. Locations that don't make money get closed, even if the rest of the company is doing well.

Also, employees can quit anytime, no notice required. Nobody is obliged to work.

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wiseowise 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Several grocery stores in Seattle have closed recently. The same with local Starbucks outlets. Locations that don't make money get closed, even if the rest of the company is doing well.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Don’t give me a sob story about mom and pop shop, we’re talking about a trillion dollar company.

> Also, employees can quit anytime, no notice required. Nobody is obliged to work.

Okay? What’s your point?

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WalterBright 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Don’t give me a sob story about mom and pop shop

The grocery stores were run by national chains. Starbucks is global.

> What’s your point?

It's symmetric. Companies employ at will, and workers work at will.

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wiseowise 3 days ago | parent [-]

> The grocery stores were run by national chains. Starbucks is global.

So you’re confirming my point that billion dollar companies (like Starbucks killing mom and pop shop) have disproportionately more power over individuals or what are you saying?

> It's symmetric. Companies employ at will, and workers work at will.

Workers don’t work at will. Last time I checked UBI is not there, so workers work to pay the bills and put food on the table.

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WalterBright 3 days ago | parent [-]

> billion dollar companies (like Starbucks killing mom and pop shop) have disproportionately more power over individuals or what are you saying?

They have zero power over individuals. They cannot make you work. They cannot prevent you from working for someone else. They cannot arrest you. They cannot confiscate things from you. They cannot tell you were to live. They cannot shoot your dog. They cannot evict you. They cannot fine you. They cannot tell you what to do after hours. You can quit at any time for any reason. Your rights are completely intact.

> Workers don’t work at will.

"at will" has a legal meaning, meaning they can work or quit or change jobs at any time. No law or company rule can prevent that.

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js8 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Ah, there's your fallacy - you seem to think that when someone has a legal right to exercise some right, that also means they have a freedom (in the practical sense) to exercise that right.

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WalterBright 2 days ago | parent [-]

I've known people who chained themselves to their desk by spending 110% of their income. They built a financial house of cards which could not withstand any interruption in their pay.

It was chains of their own making, the company was not even aware of it.

They weren't poor people, either. They had a McMansion, nice furniture, snazzy clothes and his&hers new cars.

A friend of mine, much lower on the pay scale, came to me once for some financial advice. He was married, and lived in a modest apartment. He could not pay the bills. The problem was he had his+hers new cars with stiff payments. I advised him to sell the cars, and buy ones he could afford. I was surprised that he followed my advice, and got his finances back on their feet.

A reasonable goal is to save/invest 20% of your income.

P.S. You can cut spending dramatically by getting a roommate. I had roommates for years.

	▲	WalterBright 2 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Living within your means is how you get ahead. The choice is up to you, not your employer. If you don't like your employer, quit and get another job.
	▲	wiseowise 2 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		So basically your answer is to live frugally all the time under fear of losing everything? What’s even the point of living like that?

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wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> They have zero power over individuals.

What’s your net worth? How much do you own at moment? How much have you inherited?

> They cannot tell you were to live.

Yes, they can. If you don’t have money to pay for mortgage, you have to leave.

> They cannot shoot your dog.

No, but landlord can say “no dogs”, which will reduce your pool of rental options.

> They cannot evict you.

The banks and government will, right.

> They cannot fine you

So you going from $100k+ salary to, potentially, welfare isn’t a problem at all?

> They cannot tell you what to do after hours.

Of course not, they can just gaslight you under threat of pip to be on-call for extra hours.

> Your rights are completely intact.

Companies have responsibility to society beyond making money to shareholders and upholding legal laws.

> "at will" has a legal meaning, meaning they can work or quit or change jobs at any time. No law or company rule can prevent that.

No wonder “the American Dream” is dead.

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WalterBright 2 days ago | parent [-]

If you hire a guy to mow your lawn once a week, are you obliged to provide that gig to him for life?

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wiseowise 2 days ago | parent [-]

I’m not Oracle or Starbucks, stop shifting goalposts.

	▲	WalterBright 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		What is your criteria for someone owing you a lifetime job?

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nickpp 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Safeway won’t starve and die if I decide to buy from Fred Meyer.

Ironically, you (along with a significant number of others) deciding to buy from a competitor will eventually lead to financial trouble for Safeway and thus to layoffs and losses for their investors (pension funds among them).

So, do you find your decision to buy from Fred Meyer "absolutely immoral"?!

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wiseowise 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t think there’s any point in having a conversation with you if you don’t see any difference between employment, community, civic duty and market. If you treat people as a market product, then we have even less to discuss.

	▲	nickpp a day ago \| parent [-]
		Ignoring market realities and proclaiming to care about noble but unrealistic ideological goals is how the communist regime I grew up under managed to fail to even feed its population.