| ▲ | bradleyjg 3 days ago |
| I’m sure the new owners are scummy, but the fundamental problem isn’t scummy people. There’s lots of markets that are okay-ish notwithstanding scummy people. Even those with natural lock in effects. The fundamental problem is it is at the intersection of two out of the three areas of the economy that have had insane cost growth over the last 30 years—-housing and healthcare (the third is education.) For the first one we know roughly what we need to do but won’t. For the second we don’t even have that. |
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| ▲ | FireBeyond 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > housing and healthcare (the third is education.) For the first one we know roughly what we need to do but won’t. For the second we don’t even have that. Healthcare costs increasing is of very little concern to nursing facility ownership. Almost none of that is borne by the facility itself. They'll often hire skeletal crews of CNAs and LPNs (I was a paramedic, rare was it to see a facility in our area that even had an RN, and if they were, they were the DON, Director of Nursing, and had no direct hand in patient care). The facilities would contract with a physician service who oftentimes would not even speak to the patient, let alone -see- them. And every, every single interaction with actual care provision was fully billed to the patient/resident's insurance. Anything that is not a profit making center for facility ownership is ruthlessly subcontracted out. A solid portion of the SNFs in my county will openly call 911 for anything beyond the most absolute basic first aid, even when their employees are ostensibly better educated/trained than the EMTs who might be responding. Healthcare costs in the US are an abomination, but that's not the issue here, or not directly. |
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| ▲ | Spooky23 3 days ago | parent [-] | | It’s worse than that — not only are the subcontracted entities often affiliated with the owners, but when your EMTs transport a resident, the SNF “holds their spot” (ie invoices the government) for 30 days. It’s in their interest to dump the resident on the hospital and get paid for services not rendered. Also, as residents decline they need more care, are often on Medicaid (lower reimbursement), each time they go to the hospital there is a probability they they won’t come back, and will be replaced by a Medicare patient (Medicare pays for ~90 days) at a higher rate, and perhaps higher margin services like PT/OT. It’s an evil system. Most of the people who died in NYC during early phases of COVID did because of intense lobbying to send them back to the SNF. |
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| ▲ | nradov 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The other fundamental problem is the demographic profile in most developed countries. We have aging populations, and proportionally fewer young people to care for them. I'll bet most HN users wouldn't want to work at a retirement home or assisted living facility even if it paid well. My father spent his final years in such a facility and dealing with him was quite difficult for the staff there. This will inevitably cause higher costs and lower quality. |
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| ▲ | rayiner 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The other other fundamental problem is that dealing with elderly people often is difficult and unpleasant and what can you really expect from people who aren't related to them? Daycares and preschools are often very loving places because babies are cute and trigger people's nurturing instincts but that's not true of the elderly. | | |
| ▲ | enoint 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In some parts of the facility, workers are recognized by older folks who are aging with poise. That connection looks mutual. In other parts, memory care, you are never recognized by the patients. Prepare for combative, confused ill people; your job depends on not treating them like animals. I see adult children visiting their parent, who doesn't recognize them, and wouldn’t understand that $115,000/year isn’t entirely paid by the state. | |
| ▲ | bradleyjg 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yet daycare costs are also exploding. In both cases it’s not primarily about wages going to the direct care workers—-though steep minimum wage increases are a factor in some jurisdictions. |
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| ▲ | AlotOfReading 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | CPLX 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's not the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem is that we have ceased demanding that our government produce reasonable outcomes. The reasons for that are many, but it's a core sign of how far we've fallen that there's even a discussion or argument about this obvious fact. We are in charge. We can just ban private equity companies from doing this you know. There didn't used to be ambiguity about the point of having a society and having that society governed by the people and having those people's representatives solve problems like this. That ambiguity was created on purpose, for money, by specific people. Not coincidentally, they're the same people making the profits in this story. |
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| ▲ | bradleyjg 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > We can just ban private equity companies from doing this you know. Ideologues love to identify some small group of bad guys that if we only rein in everything will be great. It’s private equity!
It’s health insurance executives!
It’s trial lawyers!
It’s CNN! The actual truth is far worse. It’s 100 million homeowners, it’s 20 million healthcare workers, it’s an entire generation too online, etc. There’s no magic bullets. Propagating the idea that there are is how we end up with garbage legislation and regulations that don’t improve anything. What people need to start respecting and demanding from their government is competence. The ideologues of every stripe need to go sit in a corner for a decade or three while we build back up working institutions. | | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 2 days ago | parent [-] | | it's private equity. We have more private equity funds than McDonalds, looking to do this kind of extraction everywhere, because we have huge wealth inequality and therefor those at the top needing to park more money in more places. Then end goal is modern feudalism, with the top owning everything and extracting more and more from every single transaction/event in a person's life. We can't fix competence when we have one political party working to make the government incompetent so that they can leverage that to tear down government. They have internal politicides such as 'starve the beast', all with the goal to make American government unable to function. | | |
| ▲ | bradleyjg 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No it really isn’t. That’s just the latest in a long line of boogeymen. The prior ones being banned somehow didn’t lead to paradise on earth. California is the world champion and banning boogeymen. How’s that going for them? And it’s not just one party that’s working to make the government incompetent. Both are. One for the reasons you cite, the other because it is beholden to public employees that want more money and less work. Just visit nyc or Chicago to see how that goes. |
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| ▲ | rayiner 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > We can just ban private equity companies from doing this you know. From doing what exactly? Do you think small businesses are any better about cutting corners for profit? They're often worse because they have worse economies of scale and face more cost pressure. | |
| ▲ | jfengel 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We have done quite the opposite. We have insisted that the government allow, and even encourage, unreasonable outcomes, so long as they benefit the right people at the cost of... well, if you have to ask, it's you. | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What was the standard of care that the government used to provide for elderly nursing in the good old days? It seems like you are remembering a history that never existed |
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| ▲ | lisper 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > There’s lots of markets that are okay-ish notwithstanding scummy people. It is not at all clear to me that there are "lots" of such markets, but that is neither here nor there. A prerequisite for an okay-ish market is that buyers need to be able to choose not to buy, and when you have literal limited mobility it becomes very difficult to walk away from your housing and care provider, either literally or figuratively. |
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| ▲ | Spooky23 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Scummy people are like flies to shit - they thrive in the chaos. People buying up nursing homes are using tactics like what you’d see in the movie Goodfellas. They’ll structure the buy so that they are assuming the license to operate while “renting” the facility from an affiliated entity, cut opex, fraudulently bill Medicare and Medicaid for rehab, and exit through bankruptcy of the operating entity. |