I think a problem is that phones, as a concept, are communication first, rather than general computing first.

If you want to partake in social networks, messaging, work communication, banking, etc you're at the mercy of the service's owner and their moat. You can't access Instagram in any other way than their app, and at that point an open OS doesn't help a lot.

I'm sure FOSS can make a feature equivalent Instagram (or Whatsapp, or whatever) but the people aren't in there.

▲

AlBugdy 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> I think a problem is that phones, as a concept, are communication first, rather than general computing first.

I use all kinds of computers for communication. I'm communicating with you on my desktop. I had a call earlier on my laptop. And a phone IS a computer, so why pretend it's not?

> If you want to partake in social networks, messaging, work communication, banking, etc you're at the mercy of the service's owner and their moat. You can't access Instagram in any other way than their app, and at that point an open OS doesn't help a lot.

I wouldn't use proprietary work tools on a personal device. It's not good hygiene.

I don't care if Instagram requires an app on a non-rooted phone with verified Google attestations because I don't use it and it's not essential.

Banking apps ARE a problem because a lot of banks don't let you use their site without their app at all. That should be solved with regulations - give people a FOSS banking app or, better yet, an API, so they can bank however they want to. Let us create FOSS interfaces for the different banks. Right now we need to revert the regulations who more or less force us to rely on Google or Apple's attestation. Internet banking is important both because there's a trend, even in countries where cash is still widely used, to have places that don't take cash, and because it's a highly regulated system paid for my taxes - I should be able to participate in a modern way with bullshit restrictions allegedly made to prevent someone's grandpa from getting hacked or phished.

But if I can't access my bank online, I'm not going to bow my head and buy a bank-approved phone with a bank-approved OS and a bank-approved $tech_company account. Who banks that often that they really need to do that, outside of places like Sweden where cash is almost dead?

▲

kace91 10 hours ago | parent [-]

>I use all kinds of computers for communication. I'm communicating with you on my desktop.

Sure, now get a date, connect with old friends, get invited to a party or join your children's school parent groups exclusively on free software.

>And a phone IS a computer, so why pretend it's not?

I agree we shouldn't, I'm just saying that it's unlikely for that need to meet a large enough demand.

You might consider Instagram, whatsapp or similar apps personally not essential, but for many (I would say most) people they are - if not truly essential for living, at least essential in the sense that they don't have much use for their phone outside of those apps.

Which was my point, as long as the main use of a phone requires passing through meta's (or whoever else's) hoops, it's going to be a hard battle.

The only minimally mainstream uses of a phone that currently lie outside the walled garden are piracy and emulators, and that's already a stretch.

	▲	AlBugdy 6 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> Sure, now get a date, connect with old friends, get invited to a party or join your children's school parent groups exclusively on free software. It's tough, but that's a normal part of trying to change the status quo and fight for something you believe in. The people who I truly care for (and who care for me) have actually installed secure FOSS apps to connect with me and invite me to parties. They were reluctant and in some cases it took months of prodding, but it happened. And slowly there's a network effect - friend X and friend Y both have app Z. They might continue to use Meta to communicate between each other, but if and when they realize they want to move away from Meta, they can use Z. I haven't had to deal with school parent groups in particular, but I have, in just a few cases over the years, managed to convert small groups from proprietary to FOSS solutions. It's hard, it's not the usual outcome (often they stay in their walled garden and I don't join them), but sometimes, just sometimes it works. That means there is actually hope and we can keep fighting the good fight. If we win, everyone wins. I also understand if someone agrees with me, but reluctantly uses a closed proprietary solution to connect to the school parent group if it's important to them to be in that community. But losing a battle doesn't mean we have to forfeit the whole fight.