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aprilthird2021 2 days ago

But so is cable television designed to be addictive. So are most restaurants and ice cream parlors and grocery stores designed to get you to spend more. Most loyalty programs are designed to be addictive to get you to come back, etc. etc.

I just worry we left no levers for the public to regulate these entities and this is the worst option of very few options. Who isn't liable under this kind of logic?

jfengel 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The personalization component takes this a step above. Making something very broadly appealing is one thing. Targeting what will keep you specifically from turning it off is a whole new level.

cmeacham98 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

So if social media removed personalization from their algorithms and only applied them broadly across large demographic groups you'd be fine with them? (Genuine question I'm curious)

jfengel a day ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe. It's hard to know what kind of world that would result in.

I could well see it being so much less effective as to not be a problem. Or maybe they'd be even more effective, and if we caught them explicitly knowing that they were harming children, it would still potentially be tortious.

nunez 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This would be great, yeah. Disable infinite scrolling and page caching (so that you’re not infinitely scrolling horizontally) and video autoplay too. Also add opt-out time limits and breaks.

bluefirebrand 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This would be a substantial improvement yes

Imagine a feed that actually just ends when you run out of posts from people you follow instead trying to endlessly keep your attention by pushing stuff it thinks you might like

If I've read all of the posts from my friends I would prefer to not see anything else, but that doesn't maximize engagement for ad platforms so

Dumblydorr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And feeding toxic content to children while doing so.

aprilthird2021 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Targeting what will keep you specifically from turning it off is a whole new level.

Your grocery store app does this and gives you personalized coupons. Will everyone who buys groceries get a $100k+ settlement?

conk 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Show me one ice cream parlor that has license psychologists on the payroll for “persuasive design” or GTFO with your bad faith argument.

CamperBob2 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Any ice cream company that has ever hired a major ad agency.

wheelerwj 2 days ago | parent [-]

Not even close and you know it.

CamperBob2 2 days ago | parent [-]

You don't know much about the advertising or food businesses, I take it.

Suggest Eric Schlosser's Fast Food Nation. It'll open your eyes.

salawat 2 days ago | parent [-]

The problem isn't X domain of business is more scummy than Y. They all are. That's kind of the problem. Tech is just egregious though in it's non-reliance on physical matter, meaning anything that can be digitally rendered is instantly a world scale fucking problem.

If it were one building in one state doing this shit, no one would care, and we'd just block or tell people don't go in the building. That doesn't work with digital products that started benign, then had the addictive qualities turned up to 11. That's malice, at scale. If every ice cream parlor, or link in the ice cream supply chain started adulterating ice cream with drugs, regulators would have dropped the hammer at the site of adulteration. Meta et Al have had no such presence forced upon them due to lack of regulation in some jurisdictions, or being left to self implement the regulation, thereby largely neutering the effort.

aprilthird2021 20 hours ago | parent [-]

> If it were one building in one state doing this shit, no one would care, and we'd just block or tell people don't go in the building.

Most retail environments do design their storefronts, logos, placement of products, even foods have higher than normal sugar, oil, and butter content, all in the service of keeping people coming back for more whether or not it is healthy for them.

How do we draw the line? Without regulations in place how is it fair to say companies are negligent in allowing people to become addicted to their products?

salawat 18 hours ago | parent [-]

>How do we draw the line? Without regulations in place how is it fair to say companies are negligent in allowing people to become addicted to their products?

How about, "If it involves exploiting aspects of human psychology that have to be taught to be mitigated it's not allowed?". There. No more marketing. For anyone. As it should have been. My heart to the artists and creatives that'll have to find employment somehow els, because it's clear that we can't both allow for creative, artistic campaigns without big industry going and sinking a psych ward worth of researchers on making themselves indispensable.

Also, I don't find questions of fairness to come into play on the topic of "getting people addicted". If you set out to do that, that's not something we should condone. Also, if you've ever cooked, you damn well know the "oil, butter, and sugar" is not what keeps people coming back to those foods. It's that they're cheap and low cognitive load to generally make. So no, I won't even entertain the question you're asking by putting food manufacturers on the same level as bloody social media. Every time I've seen A/B or marketing tests/focus groups done by the food industry, they at least have a proper psych experimentation setup. Bloody Meta made a regular habit of A/B testing without even getting consent from the parties involved. As far as other stores with marketing and all that jazz? To be quite honest, if you bother to get a psychology degree, and you are weaponizing it against the public, I really think that deserves a life reconsideration. So refer to my first paragraph. You will find no sympathy from me for usage of psychological manipulation tactics against the unawares.

megaman821 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, ice cream palors are famous for only using shades of gray and never adorning their products with things like sprinkles.

munificent 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A match is designed to start fires. So is a flamethrower.

That doesn't mean they are equivalent and must regulated the same way. Scale matters.

aprilthird2021 19 hours ago | parent [-]

This isn't about regulation. Regulation would be welcomed because you can follow it and avoid liability.

We are now saying Meta, YouTube, Snap, and nearly every major media app (maybe Netflix and HBO next!) are liable retroactively for the past when people got addicted to the content on the apps despite that the companies did not violate any regulations at the time

bjt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The nice thing about laws passed by a legislature is that they don't need to have some airtight logic to stop us falling down every slippery slope.

If cable television or restaurants or ice cream start causing harm that we want to deal with, we can vote on that when the time comes.

hattmall 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ice cream isn't engineered to be addictive. Ice cream is, for most people, actually enjoyable and costs money. If ice cream were free but you only got a small amount on random visits to the ice cream parlor then it would be engineered to be addictive.

slopinthebag 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think that is really true though. People aren't becoming addicted to grocery stores, ice cream parlours and restaurants, or even cable television to nearly (any?) degree. None of those are engineered to addict you in nearly the same degree or magnitude.

twoodfin 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

What the best evidence that otherwise psychologically healthy people are becoming clinically addicted to social media?

People used to spend an awful lot of mindless time watching TV. They weren’t “addicted” in a clinically meaningful sense.

slopinthebag 2 days ago | parent [-]

I haven't seen anybody making any claims about social media usage leading to clinically meaningful addiction. So why are you asking for evidence of that?

Also fwiw I'm not in favour of regulating social media, but I am in favour of bringing lawsuits to companies who engage in societally harmful behaviour, and punishing them financially.

twoodfin 2 days ago | parent [-]

So what the heck are we talking about ITT?

“I’m so addicted to Firefly!”

That kind of thing?

slopinthebag 2 days ago | parent [-]

No. It's been established that social media use can produce addiction-like behaviors, that it uses mechanisms similar to gambling and substance addiction, and that a subset of people experience significant impairment as a result of social media consumption. It's still debated if it should be classified as a form of Substance Use Disorder, which is what the term "clinically meaningful" refers to, but the debate is more a matter of classification and semantics, not if the issue exists at all. And not what people are referring to in the context of this case and discussion.

If you're interested in the topic further, you could consider reading 'Toward the classification of social media use disorder: Clinical characterization and proposed diagnostic criteria', which should shine some more light on what people are referring to as "addiction" in this circumstance :)

If you're interested in the neuroscience, consider reading "Neurobiological risk factors for problematic social media use as a specific form of Internet addiction: A narrative review".

twoodfin 2 days ago | parent [-]

Ah. “Can produce addiction-like behaviors”!

Like, I dunno, really getting into running or yoga or fantasy football?

Where is the line, according to experts in addiction-like behavior?

slopinthebag 2 days ago | parent [-]

Believe it or not, you might find the answer to that question inside the paper I shared with you called "Toward the classification of social media use disorder: Clinical characterization and proposed diagnostic criteria".

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235285322...

twoodfin a day ago | parent [-]

I’m not asking about the criteria for establishing new disorders. I’m sure there are many.

I’m asking why all this fuss about the social media companies and not the video or causal game companies?

Nobody’s ever written a paper about Candy Crush addiction?

Everyone seems very excited to throw Meta and others in the bucket with Big Tobacco, and I don’t see how in the world that makes sense without much stronger clinical evidence on the harms of social media to non-mentally ill people.

slopinthebag 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> I’m asking why all this fuss about the social media companies and not the video or causal game companies?

Because of the scale of the observed harm.

There is plenty of documented evidence of the harms of social media to otherwise non-mentally ill people, particularly with vulnerable demographics like adolescents and teenagers. At this point you're just playing dumb because you most likely work for big tech and are running interference. They aren't gonna give you a raise for it man, cut it out.

jen20 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> or even cable television to nearly (any?) degree

24-hour commercial cable news (in the US) is the original sin of addictive media.

slopinthebag 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not seeing any signs of addiction even within an order of magnitude of social media.