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dbt00 4 hours ago

How many American schoolchildren have Iran killed in the last 25 years? How many Iranian schoolchildren have America killed?

Where's your moral justification for this war of choice if "oops, 137 dead kids is a normal expected outcome"?

gruez 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This feels like moving the goalposts. The OP and the preceding comments are pretty clearly talking about the targeting mistake aspect of this incident, not the war itself. You're moving the discussion from the former to the latter to it easier to argue that US is in the wrong, but if the argument is that the war was unjust to begin with, then do you really need a school getting bombed to push you over the edge? After all, even if they bombed an IRGC compound and only killed soldiers, those soldiers are still people's sons, fathers, husbands. Even if there's no deaths, you could still make the macroeconomic argument that any economic losses are impoverishing the Iranian people.

kakacik 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No, I am fine with parent's take. We treat children as absolutely innocent (which they are, regardless of the way anybody tries to spin this or ie Gaza), and killing children is extra heinous crime compared to killing adult, same with rape etc. Children rapist get extra special treatment in jails, often from other murderers and society is largely fine with that.

As a parent, even when cutting off most of the emotions related to this horrible war crime, I am unfazed and unconvinced by such, even if well meaning whataboutism.

gruez 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>I am unfazed and unconvinced by such, even if well meaning whataboutism.

No, it's not whataboutism, it's moving the goalposts. Consider the following exchange:

Alice: "McDonalds mistreats its workers by paying them below the minimum wage"

Bob: "No they don't. They all get paid at or above the local minimum wage"

Charlie: "Well that doesn't matter, because McDonald's still mistreats its workers because it's a capitalist institution, which by definition means they're siphoning the fruits of the worker's labor"

Even if you agree with Charlie's point, at the very least it's in poor taste to bring it up in a conversation specifically talking about the minimum wage. Otherwise every discussion about some aspect of [thing] just turns into a plebiscite about [thing].

jvanderbot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please ask yourself if there is true evil in the world. People who are willing to kill children on purpose, or maim them, or burn them with acid, or commit other bad things I wont get into.

Then ask yourself if bad things can happen despite good intents. Truly horrible things, in fact, despite effort to prevent them.

Then, ask if this bombing was part of group A or group B.

And ask if we were trying to target people from group A or group B.

This is not an "ends justify the means" argument, I hope. But if you want to count bodies as some kind of justification for or against war because apparently morals can be reduced to addition and subtraction, you might as well at least classify the dead and causes correctly.

zmmmmm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Then, ask if this bombing was part of group A or group B.

false dichotomies are a common rhetorical method (and sometimes useful) to argue your way to a moral justification, but that doesn't make them reflect reality

There is no A and B. You want to force a situation where B is pure good intent and we either have to choose that or choose A where there is only bad intent. The reality is, this war is about ego, power and money as much as it is about any "good intent". The decisions to start the war were made with a full knowledge of the risks and costs it would entail, with almost all of those being externalised to other people than those taking the choices.

Nobody taking those choices should get to just opt out of moral responsibility with some easy "A / B" logic.

yibg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Group A also include starting a war for bad reasons and then "accidentally" killing school children as a result.

bdangubic 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We (US) are definitely in Group A. We killed and are continuing to kill more innocent people (including children) than everyone else combined but are always hiding under “oh, we really good guys here, just shit happens while we are bombing around the world for decades for no particular reason until we eventually lose and leave”)

HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Accidentally killing a bunch of kids would likely be worth it, morally speaking, if it led to the destruction of the Iranian regime.

It most absolutely is not and I struggle to believe you can build a valid argument that links bombing school children as necessary for the fall of Iran’s government.

How you win a war, especially one as lopsided as this invasion is, is as important as winning. I cannot so easily sleep at night knowing we are committing horrific atrocities during an invasion we chose to launch against a country thousands of miles away with zero military capacity to harm us here at home.

HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[flagged]

cramsession 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The US/Israel are far and away the number one terrorist organization in the world, and it's not even close.

HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Which is why I said I dont think it would be immoral for Iran to launch a bunch of rockets at the US or israel to force regime changes.

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But they can’t and don’t lob missiles at the US so to act as if they are is ridiculous. This is not a fight between equal weight classes.

HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent [-]

First, this is completely untrue. Hamas and Hezbollah have been launching missiles at Israel literally nonstop for 20 years. The houithis have and will continue to launch missiles at US assets along the Bab al-Mandab Strait. All of these missiles came directly from the iranian regime. Those groups are an arm of the Iranian government

Thats not the point though. There is no reason for either party to respond proportionally in a war. Going to war against an equal weight class as idiocy, sun tzu figured that one out forever ago.

ImPostingOnHN 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

israel is not the US

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>At the US

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We literally just deployed 5000 troops to Iran after weeks of bombing. We are boots on the ground and our belligerent president literally calls it a war. It is disingenuous to bicker over whether we can call our attack an invasion. If it was happening to us we certainly would call it one.

Hand wavy “that’s war for ya” nonsense isn’t appropriate for a serious discussion of ethics. Especially when discussing bombing a school.

HDThoreaun 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Hand wavy “that’s war for ya” nonsense isn’t appropriate for a serious discussion of ethics.

I was responding to whether the "invasion" could have been accomplished without killing the kids. I dont think that's realistic.

The separate question of whether it's worth it morally to topple the regime given kids will die I think is pretty simply yes. Iran's funding of terrorism kills and will continue to kill far more kids than died in this strike. Iran's funding of Hamas has been partially responsible for the terrible conditions Gazans are subject to. Even if Israel is mostly responsible for that I think conditions will improve if Iran cuts Hamas off. Same with Yemen, if Iranian funding is cut off conditions for the 15 million children there will improve. So yea for me personally Ive got no problem with a bombing campaign that will undoubtedly accidentally kill some civilians if it means the Iranian regime is toppled.

ImPostingOnHN 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

Killing children in an unprovoked attack to stop somebody else from potentially killing children in the future doesn't seem like a moral take to me, even if "someone else" killed more in the past or will in the future. In particular, because it actually sends the message that it's ok to kill children as long as you get what you want in the end. Not a great precedent. Perhaps that is the root of where your utilitarian morals diverge from some others' morals.

Unfortunately for everyone, now the US and israel killed a bunch of kids, and reinforced that precedent for others with these sorts of flimsy justifications, *and* everything will be the same or worse in Iran, especially for civilians. So lose-lose-lose.

> Even if Israel is mostly responsible for that [conditions in the Gaza region of Palestine] I think conditions will improve if Iran cuts Hamas off.

We can already see the outcome of that in the West Bank region of Palestine: no hamas, yet israel still exercises ultimate control via violence, and keeps oppressing and killing Palestinians and taking or destroying their stuff with impunity, especially as of late.

There's no indication israel would be more generous to Palestinians in the Gaza region of Palestine if hamas wasn't there. Palestinians in Gaza see what israel does to Palestinians in the West Bank, and want no part of it. Who can blame them? It's sick.

Dylan16807 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

cramsession an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Some children being killed is an inevitable part of war.

Killing children is a war crime, and not an inevitable part of war.

sebastiennight 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Would you mind sharing a handful of examples where, from your perspective, a war was worth its results?

Dylan16807 an hour ago | parent [-]

I guess I'd start with most colonial freedom wars.

sebastiennight 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

I might not know your personal background, but I have a hard time imagining you come from a lineage that has experience the cost of one of those.

The list of today's remaining colonies is short enough[0] that it is worth considering whether decolonization was "an idea that reached its time" in the late 20th century ; and given that there are examples of peaceful revolutions (eg India and West Africa) it is worth asking whether more places could have undergone peaceful transitions, and whether the cost in human lives and atrocities born within a decade of war doesn't outweigh the cost of the colonial system dying by itself within the same order of magnitude of time.

But then again, I think you're veering us somewhat off-topic as I'd consider a "colonial freedom war" to be a revolution (the people overthrowing their overlord) which is quite different from the topic at hand here, war between nation-states.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_non-sel...

Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t need to hear deep arguments to be convinced that it’s not ok to kill my children/bomb their school.

Dylan16807 an hour ago | parent [-]

Can you answer the question though? It's not a trick question, I want to see where you're coming from.

And it's not about whether it's "okay".

orochimaaru 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No. No childs life is worth some hypothetical regime change. There is no greater evil in this scenario than a hypothetical greater good attempts at justifying this.

jazz9k 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

sophacles 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The us has over 150 elementary schools on military bases. If you use a more colloquial definition of military base, many many national guard armories are on the same block as elementary schools or even right next to them.

Can you cite anything that says all iranian military bases are next to elementary schools? If they are on ALL bases, that makes hitting an elementary school on base less forgivable, not more, because if its a fact of every iranian military base, it's a lot harder to claim good intelligence and also that they didn't check that the part of base being bombed was the school.

Also, how is that relevant?

3 hours ago | parent [-]
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vkou 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are plenty of military bases next to elementary schools in the US.

Where do you think the kids of soldiers go to school?

pphysch 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We do. Grocery stores (commissaries) and residential units as well.

ashdksnndck an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

cramsession an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The only reason Iran would attack the US is because we back the terror colony of Israel. No Israel, no war.

ashdksnndck 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

So to clarify, your argument is it’s ok to target civilians with bombs as long as they are located in a nation that practices terror?

cramsession 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

Iran has never targeted the US but if they did, I would assume they would hit military targets.

ashdksnndck 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

Iran and its proxies frequently target civilians. They would make an exception for the US?

lejalv an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This is just your opinion. The tragedy here is that there are people with similar opinion and bombs at their disposal that feel complete impunity and go around murdering in the world

Also, remembe the CIA co-staged a coup in Iran in 1953. That's one fact, nor just opinion.

baublet 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

I suspect if the IRGC accidentally blew up a school next to a military base in Oklahoma, they would find it in them to condemn those who made such an innocent mistake.

lejalv 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

That's all speculation. What we know is that the US agressed Iran without provocation and in the midst of negotiations and started by blowing up a school and not owning up to it. And now they have threatened multiple times with destroying the civilian energy infrastructure, which is a war crime.

stickfigure 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

anigbrowl 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think they did, and anyway you're just trying to redirect to a different question.

stickfigure a minute ago | parent [-]

No, it's core to the question of whether or not you should feel morally outraged by the targeting mistake.

Which is better, leave the regime alone to continue murdering its own citizens, or run the risk of accidentally bombing a hundred schoolchildren?

It's a pretty classic trolley problem.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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