| ▲ | chatmasta 5 hours ago |
| I bet there’s gonna be a banger of a Mac Studio announced in June. Apple really stumbled into making the perfect hardware for home inference machines. Does any hardware company come close to Apple in terms of unified memory and single machines for high throughput inference workloads? Or even any DIY build? When it comes to the previous “pro workloads,” like video rendering or software compilation, you’ve always been able to build a PC that outperforms any Apple machine at the same price point. But inference is unique because its performance scales with high memory throughput, and you can’t assemble that by wiring together off the shelf parts in a consumer form factor. It’s simply not possible to DIY a homelab inference server better than the M3+ for inference workloads, at anywhere close to its price point. They are perfectly positioned to capitalize on the next few years of model architecture developments. No wonder they haven’t bothered working on their own foundation models… they can let the rest of the industry do their work for them, and by the time their Gemini licensing deal expires, they’ll have their pick of the best models to embed with their hardware. |
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| ▲ | HerbManic 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Jeff Geerling doing that 1.5TB cluster using 4 Mac Studios was pretty much all the proof needed to demo how the Mac Pro is struggling to find any place any more. https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2025/15-tb-vram-on-mac-stu... |
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| ▲ | pjmlp an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That is the proof what is left is a workaround, just like pilling minis on racks because Apple left the server space. Also why Swift nowadays has to have good Linux support, if app developers want to share code with the server. | |
| ▲ | zozbot234 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But those Thunderbolt links are slower than modern PCIe. If there's actually a M5-based Mac Studio with the same Thunderbolt support, you'll be better off e.g. for LLM inference, streaming read-only model weights from storage as we've seen with recent experiments than pushing the same amount of data via Thunderbolt. It's only if you want to go beyond local memory constraints (e.g. larger contexts) that the Thunderbolt link becomes useful. | | |
| ▲ | GeekyBear 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Wasn't streaming models from storage into limited memory a case where it was impressive that you could make the elephant dance at all? If you want to get usable speeds from very large models that haven't been quantitized to death on local machines, RDMA over Thunderbolt enables that use case. Consumer PC GPUs don't have enough RAM, enterprise GPUs that can handle the load very well are obscenely expensive, Strix Halo tops out at 128 Gigs of RAM and is limited on Thunderbolt ports. | | |
| ▲ | zozbot234 an hour ago | parent [-] | | The bad performance you saw was with very limited memory and very large models, so streaming weights from storage was a huge bottleneck. If you gradually increase RAM, more and more of the weights are cached and the speed improves quite a bit, at least until you're running huge contexts and most of the RAM ends up being devoted to that. Is the overall speed "usable"? That's highly subjective, but with local inference it's convenient to run 24x7 and rely on non-interactive use. Of course scaling out via RDMA on Thunderbolt is still there as an option, it's just not the first approach you'd try. |
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| ▲ | wpm 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why everyone wants to live in dongle/external cabling/dock hell is beyond me. PCIe cards are powered internally with no extra cables. They are secure. They do not move or fall off of shit. They do not require cable management or external power supplies. They do not have to talk to the CPU through a stupid USB hub or a Thunderbolt dock. Crappy USB HDMI capture on my Mac led me to running a fucking PC with slots to capture video off of a 50 foot HDMI cable, that then streamed the feed to my Mac from NDI, because it was more reliable than the elgarbo capture dongle I was using. This shit is bad. It sucks. It's twice the price and half the quality of a Blackmagic Design capture card. But, no slots, so I guess I can go get fucked. | | |
| ▲ | wtallis 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | For anything that's even somewhat in the consumer space rather than pure workstation/professional, the main reason is that dongles can be used with a laptop but add-in cards can't. When ordinary consumer PCs (or even office PCs) are in the picture, laptops are a huge chunk of the target audience. The market segments that can afford to ignore laptops and only target permanently-installed desktops are mostly those niches where the desktop is installed alongside some other piece of equipment that is much more expensive. |
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| ▲ | robotswantdata 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| DGX workstations, expensive but
allow PCI cards as well. https://marketplace.nvidia.com/en-us/enterprise/personal-ai-... |
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| ▲ | QuantumNomad_ an hour ago | parent [-] | | How much do those workstations cost? All of the different manufacturers links on that page lack pricing info and you have to contact them for pricing. | | |
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| ▲ | spacedcowboy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed. I’m planning on selling my 512GB M3 Ultra Studio in the next week or so (I just wrenched my back so I’m on bed-rest for the next few days) with an eye to funding the M5 Ultra Studio when it’s announced at WWDC. I can live without the RAM for a couple of months to get a good price for it, especially since Apple don’t sell that model (with the RAM) any more. |
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| ▲ | wolfhumble 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Just out of curiosity, where do you think is the best place to sell a machine like that with the lowest risk of being scammed, while still getting the best possible price? Wish you a speedy recovery for your back! |
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| ▲ | port11 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As to better or cheaper homelab: depends on the build. AMD AI Max builds do exist, and they also use unified memory. I could argue the competition was, for a long time, selling much more affordable RAM, so you could get a better build outside Apple Silicon. |
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| ▲ | tannhaeuser 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For LLMs and other pure memory-bound workloads, but for eg. diffusion models their FPU SIMD performance is lacking. |
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| ▲ | DeathArrow an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Still, running 2 to 4 5090 will beat anything Apple has to offer for both inference and training. |
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| ▲ | rubyn00bie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I don't think Apple just stumbled into it, and while I totally agree that Apple is killing it with their unified memory, I think we're going to see a pivot from NVidia and AMD. The biggest reason, I think, is: OpenAI has committed to enormous amount capex it simply cannot afford. It does not have the lead it once did, and most end-users simply do not care. There are no network effects. Anthropic at this point has completely consumed, as far as I can tell, the developer market. The one market that is actually passionate about AI. That's largely due to huge advantage of the developer space being, end users cannot tell if an "AI" coded it or a human did. That's not true for almost every other application of AI at this point. If the OpenAI domino falls, and I'd be happy to admit if I'm wrong, we're going to see a near catastrophic drop in prices for RAM and demand by the hyperscalers to well... scale. That massive drop will be completely and utterly OpenAI's fault for attempting to bite off more than it can chew. In order to shore up demand, we'll see NVidia and AMD start selling directly to consumers. We, developers, are consumers and drive demand at the enterprises we work for based on what keeps us both engaged and productive... the end result being: the ol' profit flywheel spinning. Both NVidia and AMD are capable of building GPUs that absolutely wreck Apple's best. A huge reason for this is Apple needs unified memory to keep their money maker (laptops) profitable and performant; and while, it helps their profitability it also forces them into less performant solutions. If NVidia dropped a 128GB GPU with GDDR7 at $4k-- absolutely no one would be looking for a Mac for inference. My 5090 is unbelievably fast at inference even if it can't load gigantic models, and quite frankly the 6-bit quantized versions of Qwen 3.5 are fantastic, but if it could load larger open weight models I wouldn't even bother checking Apple's pricing page. tldr; competition is as stiff as it is vicious-- Apple's "lead" in inference is only because NVidia and AMD are raking in cash selling to hyperscalers. If that cash cow goes tits up, there's no reason to assume NVidia and AMD won't definitively pull the the rug out from Apple. |
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| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > A huge reason for this is Apple needs unified memory to keep their money maker (laptops) profitable and performant None of the things people care about really get anything out of "unified memory". GPUs need a lot of memory bandwidth, but CPUs generally don't and it's rare to find something which is memory bandwidth bound on a CPU that doesn't run better on a GPU to begin with. Not having to copy data between the CPU and GPU is nice on paper but again there isn't much in the way of workloads where that was a significant bottleneck to begin with. The "weird" thing Apple is doing is using normal DDR5 with a wider-than-normal memory bus to feed their GPUs instead of using GDDR or HBM. The disadvantage of this is that it has less memory bandwidth than GDDR for the same width of the memory bus. The advantage is that normal RAM costs less than GDDR. Combined with the discrete GPU market using "amount of VRAM" as the big feature for market segmentation, a Mac with >32GB of "VRAM" ended up being interesting even if it only had half as much memory bandwidth, because it still had more than a typical PC iGPU. The sad part is that DDR5 is the thing that doesn't need to be soldered, unlike GDDR. But then Apple solders it anyway. | |
| ▲ | pjmlp an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | No one cares about Metal in that space, plus CUDA already has unified memory for a while. https://docs.nvidia.com/cuda/cuda-programming-guide/04-speci... Can we also stop giving Apple some prize for unified memory? It was the way of doing graphics programming on home computers, consoles and arcades, before dedicated 3D cards became a thing on PC and UNIX workstations. | | |
| ▲ | UqWBcuFx6NV4r 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Can we please stop treating this like some 2000s Mac vs PC flame war where you feel the need go full whataboutism whenever anyone acknowledges any positive attribute of any Apple product? If you actually read back over the comments you’re replying to, you’ll see that you’re not actually correcting anything that anyone actually said. This shit is so tiring. |
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