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himata4113 9 hours ago

lots of exciting battery developments in general, especially if donut labs by some miracle is not a fraud.

it was a bit worrying as there was somewhat of a stagnation in battery chemistry, but having non toxic/dangerous battery storage is going to make off-griding so much more attractive.

technically speaking, if every household had solar panels and batteries it would not only be cheaper than the grid it would also have complete independence from oil fluctuations, weather disasters and centralization.

now if you combine that with electric cars that charge off your off-grid system and transition to eletric appliances instead of something like gas the benefits keep stacking all while being pretty much net neutral post manufacturing.

nandomrumber 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People just don’t realise how energy intensive a manufacturing economy is.

Which is fine if your fantasy includes offshoring all of that and shipping the finished products in to the local market.

Which, no matter how you slice it, has to be more energy intensive than manufacturing locally.

athrowaway3z 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The globe looks radically different when presented in transport-energy-cost-distance.

Bulk container ships are crazy efficient. It makes more energy sense for a nation like France to trade with the eastern US than it does with Hungary.

MagicMoonlight 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

They’re crazy efficient because they use bunker fuel and have zero legal requirements because they all flag up as a country with no laws.

CamelCaseCondo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’d like to add construction materials to the list of energy intensive products. Glass, bricks, rockwool and cement.

himata4113 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

nothing stops them from also using swarms of solar panels on their roofs to at minimum offset the energy needs, localized power plants to save on transmission costs, raw high voltage power.

Hetzner does this!

TheSpiceIsLife 5 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

torginus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As an owner of household solar panels, there are weeks, sometimes even months with very little solar products, especially during the colder months.

While I don't regret getting them, they are absolutely not good enough to be the only solution.

brudgers 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

if every household had solar panels and batteries

High density housing is unlikely to be compatible with that.

Also rental dwelling owners and people with limited economic resources tend to be less likely to make those kinds of capital investment.

chii 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They are not forced to make those kinds of capital investments if they're unable - they'd be no worse off than today. Those who do get cheaper electricity (in lieu of whatever they could've otherwise spent that capital on).

However, it's the onus of the gov't (regional or federal) to create the investment needed for large, industrial scale solar and battery storage. That's what taxpayer money should be spent on.

hvb2 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> they'd be no worse off than today.

They will, assuming the people that went off grid stop paying for it. As fewer people pay for it the costs per capita grow

chii 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The cost of the grid has already been paid for. Upgrades to the grid has a higher per-capita cost, if there's fewer people paying for those upgrades today.

But they're not worse off, because the upgrades are better. For them to be worse off, the upgrades they pay for has to be worse than what they got today.

himata4113 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

yah, this is more for low density/mid density housing, I am sure the roots of 2-3 floor apts should be more than enough to sustain it as energy needs of apartments are lower to begin with. They can also bleed them into parking lots and have cover from the sun.

JuniperMesos an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Even at 2-3 stories, I'm skeptical that there's enough roof surface area to provide enough solar panels to individually cover the electrical use of all the inhabitants. Many 2-3 story apartment buildings don't have parking lots at all - and it's a common pro-density urbanist political project to remove the requirements to build one, because it discourages car use and also makes projects cheaper - but even if they did, a small apartment also means less surface area for solar panels over the parking lot. And once you're in a building with multiple households, that means that the solar panels - and the amount of energy every individual household draws from them - has to be managed communally. I'm glad I don't have to justify the power use of my home server to a group of my neighbors concerned about managing a common resource, and just pay my power bill to the de-facto-monopoly state-regulated electric utility company.

rjsw 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can put panels on walls too.

Jean-Papoulos 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>technically speaking, if every household had solar panels and batteries it would not only be cheaper than the grid

Absolutely not, economies of scale. To say nothing of the cost incurred when an issue appears with your installation (lightning strike, water damage, etc) would be much higher.

ViewTrick1002 an hour ago | parent [-]

The problem is that the grid doesn’t really get economies of scale.

Just the grid is often up to 50% of people’s electricity bills, cutting that out is a massive saving.

I think we might see a future where the grid becomes smaller. Still utility scale but skip the continental transmissions and instead run a local city scale grid with renewables, storage and a chemical based carbon neutral backup.

pjc50 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have had a set of panels on my roof for years, but I think going off grid is overrated unless it becomes drastically cheaper than being on grid.

Grid level batteries are going to be a more efficient way of using the same materials to achieve a particular level of supply. It's just at the moment there's a "competency arbitrage" where infrastructure is way slower than building it yourself.

f1shy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I can attest that. I installed panels on my house, they are not enough to cover my electrocity needs, let alone gas (heating). Even if it would be enough to cover electricity needs, the cost was (upfront) more than the equivalent of the next 20 years in bills.

To be fair, many of the costs are because of high demand (artificial, because the gov. mandates it to be installed) and lots of work to be integrated in the national grid. But as things are right now, it not economically convenient (at least where I live) and for what I have heard, in other places is not much different.

mcswell 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"it would also have complete independence from oil fluctuations..." Indeed. A foreign country can't turn the sun off. And yet Trump.

(Pardon me if you live in another country. I'm starting to wish I did.)

puzzlingcaptcha 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Technically, you can turn off the sun with a nuclear winter. But in that case your main problem would be starvation anyway.

ethagnawl 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's batshit crazy that the most powerful and influential person in the world dismisses the above (practical, clinical and irrefutable) as "a green scam" and people go along with it. We do so at our peril on so many levels.

lukan 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"weather disasters "

Solar does seem to be influenced by those, though. So before battery storage is really, really cheap and plenty, for off grid situations I do would prefer backup gas as well.

(can also be produced locally: https://www.homebiogas.com/shop/backyard-systems/homebiogas-...)

brightball 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Having some natural gas purely as a secondary emergency heat source is well worth it IMO.

himata4113 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

having a military grade generator (can pick up decomissioned ones for pretty cheap) as a backup still works.

blondie9x 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It might not be needed though if you have a battery generator and enough solar panels.

But if you have a BBQ with propane and the sun didn't shine for many many days that should be sufficient.

aidenn0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Your comment is ambiguous; in the event that anybody is interpreting this as "use your propane BBQ to heat your house" don't do that. You are highly likely to get a first-hand experience of CO toxicity.

casey2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Interesting that the script has flipped, now china is leading breakthroughs and hardware startup culture is perpetuating frauds