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Grimblewald 13 hours ago

BYD / Denza z9 gt claim 10-70% in 5 mins, 97% in 9 mins. With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results? I don't know enough about this space to know if I am missing something here, but would love to know because something about this feels more exciting than i think i am grasping. anyone know?

IneffablePigeon 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This article is about a sodium-ion battery which is a different chemistry to the one BYD claimed those results on (that was LFP).

Sodium-ion is exciting because it has the potential to have less degradation over time, much less sensitivity to cold and less reliance on rare earth metals. Could also end up significantly cheaper. However it has struggled to reach the same energy densities and so hasn’t been practical thus far.

This seems like a big step towards it being a practical technology choice for certain models, if it bears out.

jillesvangurp 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What sodium ion lacks in energy density, it actually partially gains back in the reduced need for cooling. The same properties that make it work across a larger temperature range also mean that you don't need a lot of (or any) cooling/heating to condition the battery. That means less weight is used for that and less energy is needed for running a heat pump.

Another thing here is that volumetric density matters more than weight density in cars. Space comes at a premium and while weight affects efficiency somewhat, it pales in comparison to aerodynamics and rolling resistance. The difference between the best and the worst cars on the road is at least 3x. You have some heavy, brick shaped, monstrosities that barely do 1.5 miles per kwh and then you have some cars with low drag coefficient that easily do 5-6 miles per kwh. Even swapping tires can add meaningful range. Weight reductions help a bit but the difference between the best and worst energy densities on a 60kwh battery is probably 1-2 big passengers in terms of weight.

Peak energy makes sodium ion batteries for energy storage. Their pilot batteries are deployed in a desert. High temperatures during the day, freezing temperatures at night. They use only passive cooling without any moving parts (fans, pumps, etc.). Aside from that being impressive, that also lowers maintenance cost because it reduces the amount of stuff that actually needs servicing.

Sodium ion gains back volume because it doesn't need cooling. At the cell level, they are worse but at the pack level, it starts looking pretty decent. Anyway, there are multiple sodium ion batteries on the road now in China. It's practical right now. The rest is just the widening technology gap the US and EU have with China. We'll just have to wait a few years for local manufacturers to catch up. Some models with these batteries will probably start making it to the EU in the next two years or so.

hunterpayne 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Sodium-ion is exciting because..."

Well it is exciting, but not for the reasons you think. More like a Michael Bay movie exciting...there is nothing practical about this design. Most of the cost will be safety systems designed to prevent the battery from being exciting and even then a crash will likely set them off. Pure Na-ion probably isn't viable and certainly isn't viable in a car. Maybe mixing in some Na into the Li-ion to stretch the small amount of Lithium but even then you are significantly increasing the volatility of the battery.

This isn't a practical step, its an act of desperation from people who don't want to admit that large scale electrification is a dumb idea. We electrified everything that made sense to electrify a half century ago.

November_Echo 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Most of the cost will be safety systems designed to prevent the battery from being exciting and even then a crash will likely set them off.

People say the same thing about Li-ion batteries yet they have proven to be significantly less likely to catch fire compared to ICE vehicles [1].

> people who don't want to admit that large scale electrification is a dumb idea. We electrified everything that made sense to electrify a half century ago.

I'm very curious to hear why you think this. If nothing else, the 'situation' with the Strait of Hormuz would seem to have shown the importance of energy independence achieved through large scale electrification. Individually, I couldn't go back to an ICE car or even garden tools, they're worse in every way.

1. https://www.mynrma.com.au/open-road/advice-and-how-to/unders...

fluoridation 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>People say the same thing about Li-ion batteries yet they have proven to be significantly less likely to catch fire compared to ICE vehicles [1].

Isn't the nasty thing about lithium fires not how likely they are, but how difficult they are to put out, as well as how hot they burn?

brudgers 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yep. Let it burn is currently the high bit of fire fighting protocol for EV fires used by local fire services.

fluoridation 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It's only a matter of time before an EV catches fire after crashing into a building and a bunch of people die because the fire couldn't be put out.

AnthonyMouse an hour ago | parent [-]

Wouldn't they just chain the burning car and pull it out of the building?

dotancohen 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No.

fluoridation 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes.

nandomrumber 6 hours ago | parent [-]

If we’ve got data, let’s go with the data.

If all we’ve got is opinions, let’s go with yours.

nandomrumber 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For a sobering look at the reality of electric vehicle fires, including his involvement in some original research, you can’t go passed StacheD:

https://youtube.com/@stachedtraining?si=rMfvXq_GFa1hT5ra

Toutouxc an hour ago | parent [-]

I went in and played a few videos. I'm not sure if anything in there is "sobering" to me (as an EV owner), all the incidents that he shows make sense and the physics are easy to understand.

He seems to be pretty knowledgeable about battery and EV architecture and the stated facts and numbers seem solid, but it also sounds like he takes great care not to scare away his flock of EV-hating idiots.

hunterpayne 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

jeremysalwen 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just because you state your opinion confidently, does not mean you are correct. For example, as of 2024, there are 30 billion kilograms of proven reserves of lithium, more than enough to replace every single one of the 1.5 billion ICE cars in the world with an electric car. Please focus more on getting the facts right, and less on speculating about the character of other commenters in an overemotional manner.

sov 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Na is 30x the volatility of Li.

Elemental sodium is reactive. Ionic sodium is not, lest you blow up your dinner. Furthermore, the lithium part of a Li-ion battery isn't the flammable part, the electrolyte is.

> If you want to replace FF there is exactly one solution, that's nuclear.

You're proposing to... replace vehicular internal combustion engines with nuclear reactors?

> Stop acting like you care about this issue. You have never cared enough to learn about it, so until you do, stop spreading misinformation about how physics works.

It's wild for you, in particular, to take such a weirdly aggressive stance here. Zero basis in reality, just virtue signaling.

November_Echo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Just like you (at the moment) are acting like you don't care if people die in fires.

There is nothing in my comment that could possibly be interpreted as meaning I don't care about people dying in fires.

> If you want to replace FF there is exactly one solution, that's nuclear.

We're talking about batteries, so I'm not sure how this is relevant unless you want reactors in cars?

> Stop acting like you care about this issue. You have never cared enough to learn about it, so until you do, stop spreading misinformation about how physics works.

I made a single, sourced, claim in my comment and didn't mention physics once?

> Too bad there isn't enough Li for everyone to have one.

Could this be why companies are looking at alternatives? Either way, this claim really should be provided with a source.

lazide 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sodium ion batteries seem roughly as fire prone as LFP - which is to say, no particularly?

What are you going on about?

nvme0n1p1 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We electrified everything that made sense to electrify a half century ago.

Not even close. We electrify more and more as tech improves. Do you really think people were using electric leaf blowers in the 1970s?

JuniperMesos an hour ago | parent [-]

I ride an electric scooter to work. An older friend of mine saw this, and reminisced about how he rode a gasoline-powered scooter to work 20 years ago in the early 2000s, and how he had to deal with the fact that it was loud and smelled of gasoline. I'm sure it was possible to buy some kind of electric scooter then, maybe even one that would've worked for his commuting needs. But I'm not surprised that lithium ion battery tech got significantly better over those 20 years, such that when I bought my scooter last year it didn't even occur to me to look and see if there was something gas-powered I could've bought.

cyberax 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Pure Na-ion probably isn't viable and certainly isn't viable in a car.

You're saying: https://insideevs.com/news/786509/catl-changan-worlds-first-... ?

MisterTea 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see no charge rate numbers so there is no way to compare. however, these sodium batteries are cheaper, do not require lithium, and are operable at lower temperatures of -20C/-4F. Sounds like a bit of a win and opens the door for battery options in cars.

_aavaa_ 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And the fire safety risks are significantly reduced (thermal runaway is much harder). They can also be transported and stored completely discharged, something not done with lithium ion batteries because of it degrades them much more than regular usage.

adrian_b 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The sodium-ion batteries are said to work satisfactorily down to -40 Celsius = -40 Fahrenheit.

-20 Celsius just happens to be a temperature for which a retention ratio was specified in the parent article, and not the limit of the operation range.

nulltrace 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Operating at -40 is one thing, charging at -40 is another.

Dylan16807 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

When you're at a charger you can easily spare the 3-4% of battery capacity it takes to heat the pack by 40C. Less if you use a heat pump.

adrian_b 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have no idea how true this is, but the press releases claimed that both most of the capacity is retained down to -40 and that the charging speed is proportionally retain down to -40, and that this is the meaning of the operational range.

nulltrace an hour ago | parent [-]

Right, good to know.

pjc50 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many people let their ICE engine block get that cold?

nottorp an hour ago | parent [-]

For -40, the anecdote for combustion engines used to be that in Siberia you turn on the car's engine in november and off in march.

For -20 though, it can happen each year in 4 season temperate climates and north of that.

8note 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

i would have imagined that charging at -40 is easier than operating at -40.

mbesto 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> With a range of ~1000km this seems to crush these results

The 1000km range likely has more to do with the efficiency of the drivetrain and the aerodynamics of the car more than the battery tech. kWh is an absolute value that is fungible and the Denza has a 122.5 kWh battery pack, which means its getting 5mi/kWh. For perspective my Rivian R1S gets ~350 miles on a 135 kWh pack which is about 2.5mi/kWh (so about half that)

The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight. Sodium batteries are typically much heavier than Li-on. I believe the Denza uses LFP, which means it's likely somewhere else on the car that they're gaining improvement in the range - not from the battery tech. That being said, the battery tech definitely affects the charge/discharge rates.

masklinn 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight.

Weight is a pretty low factor for cars, sub-percent (aging wheels did a comparison using a pickup empty versus loaded with a pallet of shingles, though with a more efficient vehicle the influence of weight probably shows up more).

Energy density (amount of energy per unit of volume) is a much bigger factor than energy specificity (amount of energy per unit of mass), it means you can either cram more energy in the same volume for more range, or have a lower vehicle with better aero.

AnthonyMouse 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The only part of the battery tech that could affect range is the weight.

Doesn't the charging speed affect how much regenerative braking can be done? If you have to stop fast enough or the battery is sufficiently hot/full/etc. then one that can't charge as fast requires more of the energy to be lost.

adrian_b 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sodium-ion batteries will always be heavier than the best lithium-ion batteries, but for now they have the same energy per kilogram with LFP batteries.

So they have 2 essential advantages over LFP, retention of capacity to much lower temperatures and their cost will become significantly lower when their production technology will be more mature, because they not only do not use lithium, but they also do not use other expensive substances, e.g. nickel or cobalt.

formerly_proven 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ok, but the Rivian R1S is a particularly inefficient EV (2-2.5 mi/kWh = 31-25 kWh/100 km). 12.5 kWh/100 km is efficient but not outlandishly so considering these are likely CLTC ranges, which are higher than WLTP which are higher than EPA, and the car in question is not in fact a dumptruck.

cbg0 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The range claims depend on the size of the battery pack. The Denza has a larger pack than what is quoted in the article. Also, the Chinese CLTC range ratings are overly optimistic with 1000km CLTC being ~820km WLTP or ~700km EPA.