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strongpigeon 3 hours ago

There is a fairly low amount of details about the case in the article. This NPR article [0] has a bit more, but it's still fairly sparse. Though it's interesting how Zuckerberg thought it was a good idea to say: "If people feel like they're not having a good experience, why would they keep using the product?".

Given that this is a case about addiction, that feels like a shockingly bad thing to say in defense of your product. Can you imagine saying the same thing about oxycodone or cigarettes?

[0] https://www.npr.org/2026/03/25/nx-s1-5746125/meta-youtube-so...

Vegenoid 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Can you imagine saying the same thing about oxycodone or cigarettes?

No, but unfortunately I can very easily imagine people saying it, just like the people who made loads of money from pushing those products did. Also just like the people who are profiting from the spread of gambling are saying now.

Why would someone choose to do a thing if it harms them? There are good arguments against laws that restrict personal freedoms, but this isn't one of them.

strongpigeon an hour ago | parent [-]

But what if we're talking about a product that you're giving away to children? I agree that for adults, cigarettes are fine. But in this case, you're actively designing to maximize tweens and teens engagement and the end result is them saying that they wan't to stop but can't.

Though to be fair, I was mostly pointing out the fact that this was a pretty dumb thing to say for a case like this, especially in a jury trial.

twoodfin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who values a liberal society, I hope we’d be exceedingly careful in what we label “addictive” in the same bucket as oxy or nicotine.

I also hope the reasons are obvious.

nkrisc an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Keep in mind that this case is about about a minor, not an adult. I don't think it's fair to ask children to resist social media through sheer willpower when there are legions of highly educated adults on the other side trying to increase engagement.

It should be no surprise that children can be manipulated by highly intelligent adults.

timmg an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Keep in mind that this case is about about a minor, not an adult.

This obviously means that tech is going to have no choice but to do "age verification". And I don't think there's much of a way to do that that wouldn't be uncomfortable for a lot of us.

cwmoore 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

Or assign responsibility to…parents and legal guardians…who are not children.

fdgfikgfv 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It would work if parents had legal course to seek justice against corporations that stalk, groom, and manipulate their children against their wishes.

timmg 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't this lawsuit (essentially) prove otherwise?

Barbing an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>[There are] legions of highly educated adults [at Meta] trying to increase [child] engagement

Why is this not only OK but the best way for Mark to spend every waking moment of his life?

Money thing? But often would he think about his bank account versus his products, maybe it’s pure drive?

hnlmorg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We already have a distinction because it’s been known for decades already that some things are addictive purely through reinforcement psychology and some things lock people into a chemical dependence.

For example see the glossary in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_dependence

janalsncm an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I also hope the reasons are obvious.

Based on the fact that many people here disagree about fundamental things, as well as the fact that “liberal” is a highly overloaded term, I think it should be obvious that it’s not obvious what you mean.

anon84873628 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think the reasons are obvious. Where do you put gambling on the spectrum?

twoodfin 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If something compels behavior vs. behavior remaining a free choice, a liberal society can and should treat it like any other source of compulsion.

Personally, I am leery of any technical definition of “addictive” that operates outside the traditional chemical influences on physiology. So I would not describe gambling in that sense.

One might have a malady that causes gambling to take on the same physiological vibe for you, but that’s not what it means for gambling itself to be addictive.

jwardbond 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am not a neuroscientist, but I thought the actual physiological cause of addiction was similar in both nicotine and gambling: you crave the predictable release of dopamine.

If that is the (heavily simplified) case, is there a distinction for you between a chemically-induced dopamine release from smoking and, say, and a button you can press that magically releases dopamine in your brain?

2 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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SauntSolaire an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're missing the negative affect node of the Koob addiction cycle, which exists for gambling but to a lesser degree than for nicotine.

twoodfin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don’t gamble, but if I did, I am fairly certain it would release little to no dopamine for me, win or lose.

I don’t smoke, but if I did, I’m also fairly certain I would find it hard to stop.

fingerlocks an hour ago | parent | next [-]

You’re being downvoted, but there’s an interesting point you’re trying to make. Dopamine-chasing is truly selective in the behavior and chemical sense.

There is a particular hard drug that I could be easily addicted to if it were cheaper and more accessible. Nothing else like it gives me irresistible craving for more. Not nicotine, ADHD meds or speed, benzos, and not even opioids have the same effect. So after I discovered this about myself, I went on a little journey to self test myself other possible addictions.

Social media? Nope. Video games and tv? yes. Gambling, hoarding, shopping: No. Sex: yes. Exercise: yes

I can’t rationalize any of it.

ses1984 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

And yet, some people find themselves compelled to continue gambling long after they’re drowning in debt.

If you don’t want to call that addiction, fine, but you can’t deny that it happens.

twoodfin 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

Right: They’re gambling addicts. That’s a distinct fact from, “Gambling is a physiologically addictive behavior for typical humans.”

SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You seem to be differentiating between physical and psychological addiction, and saying that only physical addiction meets the technical definition of addiction?

twoodfin 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m saying society should tread extremely carefully in attempting to regulate citizens’ potentially psychologically addictive behaviors.

SoftTalker an hour ago | parent [-]

Ah OK. Yes I agree, there can be a blurry line between something a person does compulsively/addictively and something that he just enjoys doing. And it's different for different people.

card_zero 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

To add to the confusion, sometimes I do stupid things just once. Even so, those things should be banned, for harming me.

dylan604 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We already have a category called addictive personality disorder where someone is much more prone to being addicted to pretty much anything.

In the US, regardless of what type of addiction you have, it is considered mental health. Open market insurance like ACA does not cover mental health, so there is no addiction treatment available. Sure, you can be addicted to a substance where your body needs a fix, but it is still treated as mental care. This seems to go directly against what your thoughts are on addiction, but that doesn't say much as you're just some rando on the interweb expressing their untrained opinions. So am I, but I'm not the spouting differing opinions with nothing more to back them up than how you feel.

tqi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Where would you put 24x7 political content?

toyg an hour ago | parent [-]

That's more like perversion...

JKCalhoun an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"I hope we’d be exceedingly careful in what we label “addictive”…"

To be sure. But still an obviously dumb thing for a CEO to say though.

Zigurd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dark patterns are real. Deceptive advertising is real. So-called prediction markets amount to unregulated gambling on any proposition. Many online businesses are whale hunts and the whales are often addicts.

Sir_Twist 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I feel like people use the word “addiction” to refer to both chemical addiction and behavioral addiction, and that people understand that the latter is (usually) far less serious than the former.

cedws an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think you can put them into buckets like that. All addiction is driven in persuit of a reward. The magnitude of reward can be estimated with brain scans and stuff but to my understanding isn't universal in all humans.

Can we definitely say gambling addiction is less serious than alcohol addiction when there's individuals who find the former harder to quit than the latter?

joecool1029 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I hope we’d be exceedingly careful in what we label “addictive” in the same bucket as oxy or nicotine.

Not careful enough apparently: Nicotine isn't that addictive on its own, tobacco is.

vjulian 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Be aware, the vast majority of people who have ever smoked cigarettes occasionally never became addicted. They were not labeled as “smokers”. A non-trivial number of people today continue to smoke cigarettes on occasion. I like to have one on my birthday. Then again, I’m able to eat a chip and not consume the entire bag. I’m not convinced of these social science studies, and when digging into individual studies I’m sure the replication crisis comes into play.

thewebguyd an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tobacco may be the most* addictive delivery method, but nicotine alone is also addictive. To say its not is misinformation. Consistent use of nicotine still leads to upregulation, which does cause irritability, brain fog, cravings when you stop.

* I'd even change this to say modern nicotine salts in vapes are likely to lead to dependency faster than tobacco. A 5% nicotine salt pod will contain as much nicotine as a full pack of cigarettes, and so vapers tend to consume far more nicotine in a single sitting than they ever could with a cigarette. That combined withe constant availability means users of nicotine vapes & pouches (aka, no tobacco) are likey to have a more difficult time quitting than cigarette smokers.

Bottom line, its still dangerous to dismiss nicotine's addictive potential with or without tobacco as a delivery method.

SauntSolaire 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Not careful enough apparently: Nicotine isn't that addictive on its own, tobacco is.

That is a very strong claim to make when the current scientific consensus strongly disagrees.

mrintegrity 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How does that work when nicotine products that are every bit as addictive as tobacco exist, maybe you're just not aware of them? Sitting here with non tobacco snus (Swedish nicotine pouch) under my top lip, something I have been utterly unable to quit. I believe "nicotine free" tobacco would be completely non addictive.

cyanydeez an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Social media is addictive the same way anorexia is. If you think Anorexia isn't a form of addiction, then sure, you got your 'safety'.

yabutlivnWoods an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mmhmm those are words. Words that are hand wavy pretexts for conservatism rather than liberalism; as a lover of liberal society you hope it acts conservatively!

This just comes off as poorly obfuscated self selection. You own a bunch of Meta, Alphabet and other media stocks?

btmiller an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

There’s a big distance between libertarian and liberal societies. The libertarian tendencies of corporations are what tend to cause more harm.

petre an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If people feel that smoking causes lung cancer why do they keep smoking?

easytiger an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why not make personal responsibility illegal whilst we are at it. It is egregious that an individual can be held accountable for their own behaviours.

janalsncm an hour ago | parent [-]

How much personal responsibility should we expect children to have? Genuine question. Because there was a time where some people believed that it was ok for kids to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes.

cyanydeez an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

"If people didn't like destroying the environment, why would they let lobbiests run their government"

-- Billionaires