| ▲ | amarant 5 hours ago |
| A core trait of my personality can be summed up as "always look on the bright side of life". To that end: This war seems more than likely to drive up oil prices not only in the near term, but in the medium and long terms too! In addition, petroleum usage seems likely to become dependant on sucking Iran's proverbial dick, a notion that very few people in The West will find palatable. Optimistically then, perhaps this will finally light a fire under everyone's asses to switch to renewable energy sources! Wether it's wind, solar or hydro, a underappreciated property of renewable energy is the energy sovereignty they provide. Once deployed, international trade can stop completely, and you'll still have electricity to heat your homes, cook your food, and drive your car. No more being dependant on dubious regimes like Iran for your day-to-day. Admittedly this is true for coal, too, but I think we've already established that it cannot economically compete, so that should play out in favour of renewables in the long run. |
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| ▲ | ericmay 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Self-sufficiency is a myth. Even if you wanted to try and be energy independent, for the short and medium term (and maybe longer, who knows?) you will be dependent on China and all the baggage that they bring because of their dominance of rare earth mineral processing. Need a new solar panel? Don't make a certain country mad (whether that's your local Ayatollah or CCP official). And that's just energy. What about pharmaceuticals? Financial markets? Who protects your shipping lanes? Who builds your semiconductors? Where do those factories get their energy from? I support the diversity of energy sources because they all have strengths and weaknesses. We've got to figure out climate change. But we also can't have, even if you want to somehow "move off of oil" a single country run by lunatics who can decide whenever they don't get their way that they get to seize 20% of the global oil supply. We can't have China dominating rare earth processing either. For some others it may be a reliance on American military technology. |
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| ▲ | nostrademons an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a huge difference between buying a solar panel once and having it generate energy for the next 30 years vs. buying a barrel of oil now and consuming it by next week. It's the same difference as buying a house now and owning it until it collapses vs. renting a house and being at the mercy of your landlord, or buying a piece of shrink-wrapped software and using it for the next 18 years vs. renting a SaaS subscription that provides a different product next month. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > buying a piece of shrink-wrapped software and using it for the next 18 years I'm wondering how that works. I have written software that was still being used, 25 years later, but it was pretty much a "Ship of Theseus," by then. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Self-sufficiency is a myth Self sufficiency exists on a spectrum. On the idiot end is autarky, which only works to keep a small group in power at the expense of massive national weakness. On the other end is a lack of stockpiles and domestic production that essentially negates sovereighty. A country running a solar grid with EVs can withstand more economic shocks for longer than one importing oil. And while mining metals is geographically limited, making solar panels and batteries and cars is not. | |
| ▲ | estearum 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think they said it will give you self-sufficiency, rather that it removes one (important) dimension of dependency. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It doesn't though, it's the illusion of removing of a dependency which is rather dangerous. You're not only swapping one dependency for another in this specific case, but you're ignoring the rest of the global economy and its own dependencies and how they affect you. | | |
| ▲ | mememememememo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A country that goes all in renewable is in a stronger positon. UK power grid doesn't give a fuck about this war. Sure China. But unless they send in an army to retreive previously sold panels, or block the sun they can only harm future increases to supply. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > A country that goes all in renewable is in a stronger position. Depends on the country. > UK power grid doesn't give a fuck about this war. Power grid =/= economy. You're missing the point. Rising prices affect the United Kingdom economy even if it was fully run on renewables. The ships bringing products to the country don't run on renewables, the cars mostly don't, your fighter jets don't, your fertilizer doesn't. &c. It's important to not be dogmatic and be practical about this stuff. Every country on the planet needs and utilizes oil and gas and that will remain true for the foreseeable future because of globalized supply chains. > Sure China. But unless they send in an army to retreive previously sold panels, or block the sun they can only harm future increases to supply. Which, in the case of a war with the US would be true because the UK will be involved and sided with the US and/or certainly assumed to be by China. (This is indisputable). So sure you build up those panels, but then you see a war and now you lose access to those materials and if it isn't solved in the near term you have to switch all of your energy back to fossil fuels. No new EVs during the war, for example. | |
| ▲ | r2_pilot 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or wait 20 years for the panels to degrade... | | |
| ▲ | californical 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Two things 1. It’s closer to 50 years, and even a partially degraded panel will work, just with less output 2. Even if we say 20 years, that means that you only need to buy panels once every 20 years! Not continuously. A complete and total interruption of solar panel production lasting 4 years will only mildly interrupt current output. How long can we last with a total disruption to oil supply chains? | |
| ▲ | Hikikomori 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Swiss measurement of 30 year old panels showed 20% degradation. | |
| ▲ | kibwen an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The long operating life of a solar panel compared to a barrel of oil is a selling point when it comes to self-sufficiency. With 20 years of warning, any country that pretends to be a globally-relevant power can get itself to the point of producing acceptable solar panels if its survival depends on it. |
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| ▲ | littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're swapping a dependency which hits very quickly if disturbed, for one that would take a much longer time to manifest. When Russia invades Ukraine or Iran cuts the straight of Ormuz energy prize go up instantly, chocking the entire world economy in the course of a few weeks. Even if China stops exporting rare earths, it would take years before it affects the energy market. It's absolutely incomparable. Cuba is a good example by the way: a country can survive for decades while being cut from most technology import due to sanctions, but if you cut its access to oil, it becomes dirty real quick. And because Cuba has been stuck in the middle of the 20th century, it's actually much less dependent on energy than most developed or even developing countries. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You're swapping a dependency which hits very quickly if disturbed, for one that would take a much longer time to manifest. That's not the entire point. You still rely on global supply chains. Those semiconductors in your MacBook Pro are made in Taiwan - many steps (perhaps most) in that supply chain to go from raw material to MacBook Pro, or EV, or fresh produce rely on oil. When Iran holds 20% of the world's oil supply hostage then prices go up for you too. Even if you are 100% renewables you are still dependent on oil for your economy. Even the renewable power grid relies on fossil fuels for maintenance and service, many parts and components are built using materials made from oil (hello plastic), &c. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nobody said that a modern economy can be completely independent, but that doesn't mean all levels and types of dependency are equal. |
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| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, an operational dependency that immediately raises costs across your entire economy, across all geographies, all industries, within a couple days of disruption is very different from these more strategic dependencies. The key would be to simply not ignore all the other dimensions of dependency. |
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| ▲ | kmeisthax 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oil is disposable, solar panels are not. If you have solar, and then piss off the CCP to the point where they attempt to stop you from acquiring more of it, you don't lose the solar you already have. Those solar panels will continue generating energy for years, if not decades, afterwards. It's also important to note that the US also produces oil[0]. There are some quirks of the market and refineries that make it difficult to consume our own oil, but we could potentially build more domestic processing. The real problem is that pesky global market that puts costs on the state's ambitions for power. To put it bluntly, American oil is expensive. We can survive an oil crisis iff we are willing to pay astronomical prices at the pump; but if we are doing this assuming we can just enjoy cheap gas while the world burns, we are going to get a rude awakening. Think about it this way: buying your energy in the form of oil is like exclusively using streaming services for your entertainment needs. It's cheap, easy, convenient - until the plug gets pulled and it suddenly stops being those things. Buying solar is like buying physical media - you have to pay up front and it's more of a hassle to get started, but it can't be turned off on a whim. [0] It also used to produce rare earths, too. The mines closed down because they were too expensive to operate - not because rare earths are actually rare. |
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| ▲ | goda90 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In January, the youtuber Technology Connections did a whole rant about how ridiculous it is that we're not rushing as quickly as possible to get off of non-renewable energy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM |
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| ▲ | scoofy an hour ago | parent [-] | | It really is crazy that environmentalists were like, "hey look, free energy," and suddenly everyone started screaming "No, boo! We like the way things are!" I have a friend who has never used an induction range before that is dead set that he never wants one. I just don't get it. | | |
| ▲ | scottLobster an hour ago | parent [-] | | To be fair induction ranges aren't without issues, not due to the concept itself but failures in implementation. Touch screen controls are rife and not only become impossible to use when, say, grease is splattered on them or your hands are wet/wearing gloves (common when cooking on a stove top), they can even be falsely activated by such things. Cold spots can also be a concern depending on your cookware. Unfortunately a lot of promising technology has matured in a time of consumer product enshitification, and there is no established track record for people to be nostalgic for. | | |
| ▲ | stickfigure 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | LG makes an induction range with knobs. I have one. It's wonderful. | |
| ▲ | scoofy an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Again, I’m talking about someone who has never used one who has their mind made up. I don’t think there is anything wrong with preferring gas. It has many superior use cases. My point is that “no, I like things this way and won’t ever consider trying the other thing, much less changing, even though the other thing ends up being effectively free in the long run” is silly, and almost certainly based in some kind of identity. Where as I think most curious people would think "Oh, neat, a new cooking surface. I'd like to try that thing." |
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| ▲ | 1minusp 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'd love to believe this, but very recent history has shown (in the US at least) that we are moving backwards and trying to resist renewable energy. |
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| ▲ | brightball 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Economics will always win in the end. At the rate that costs are dropping for solar, it should just be a matter of time. Biggest concerns are usually placement and durability to bad weather. | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > very recent history has shown (in the US at least) that we are moving backwards and trying to resist renewable energy A longer view of history shows a clear pattern: "After a gasoline price shock, households respond in the short run mostly by reducing travel, although estimates from the literature suggest the response in the short run is quite low (e.g., Hughes, Knittel, and Sperling 2006). Over long horizons, households adjust their vehicle technology and reduce further their consumption of gasoline. ... The market share of full-size pickups, utility vehicles, and vans fell more than 15 percentage points between its peak in 2004 and early 2009. Small cars and the new cross-utility vehicle segment picked up most of this market share" [1]. [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086%2F657541#... |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > war seems more than likely to drive up oil prices not only in the near term, but in the medium and long terms too "This recovery period doesn’t just get pushed out by 24 hours each day it gets longer as more production is forced to shut down or is damaged in the fighting. As I write this, futures markets for the WTI seem to be expecting oil prices to remain elevated (above $70 or so) well into 2028." |
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| ▲ | scottLobster an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Pessimistically, this will lead to the return of old-school Imperialism to secure the necessary oil supplies and increased exploitation of known deposits. Just because there's an obvious good choice for the average citizen doesn't mean we'll take it, as recent history has more than proven. |
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| ▲ | buran77 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The petrochemical industry is huge we've yet to find alternatives for it. Half the stuff around you was made with something derived from oil, and you can't replace that with wind or sunlight in the foreseeable future. |
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| ▲ | andriy_koval 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | there are pathways to produce synthetic oil from coal or using carbon capture if you have cheap energy.
I hope they will catch up if fossil oil prices skyrocket. | | |
| ▲ | kmeisthax an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is the secret flipside of solar power's duck curve: it makes a lot of stupidly energy intensive paths towards non-fossil oil production a lot less stupid if you just have the energy to burn. Think about how in the 2000s we had a weird obsession with ethanol and other biofuels, only to learn that they were merely 40-50% efficient. If your energy mix is predominantly fossil fuels, you're better off just not burning the oil. But if you have solar, suddenly it becomes a good option for energy storage, especially in industries that need the weight properties of chemical fuels (i.e. aircraft, where you HAVE to be able to burn and exhaust your fuel or the plane will be too heavy to land). |
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| ▲ | oblio an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A lot of what the petrochemical industry does took over from other stuff or isn't vital, there just hasn't been enough push back against it. Stuff like medicine, sure, crucial and very hard to find replacements for. But single use plastics can probably be replaced 95% (the environment would appreciate it if we banned them), dyes are mostly not vital, synthetic fibers can be replaced 95% with minor critical impact, just using natural fibers, etc. The petrochemical industry is just the cheapest option in many cases in a world driven by conspicuous consumption of non vital items. | |
| ▲ | leonidasrup an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | all2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We should also note that wind turbines require huge amounts of petroleum derivatives to operate. | | |
| ▲ | nullpoint420 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah but at least the byproducts produce a solid that can last for years vs treating it as a consumable. I'm fulling expecting someone will reply to me and say that making plastic wastes 75% of the oil or something during production, and that it's just as wasteful amortized across the lifespan of a wind turbine. I'm tired, man. | | |
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| ▲ | epsters 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am not sure getting a million people killed in another decades-long middle-eastern war (one whose scale and tragedies will likely overshadow all the previous wars we have seen so far in region) in a country of 90 million people is really worth the push to renewables. |
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| ▲ | weaksauce 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| this misses the fact that petroleum is incredibly useful outside of the burn it to make electricity and burn it to make car move use cases. |
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| ▲ | bikelang 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | All the more reason to not squander a finite, precious resource to generate electricity. | |
| ▲ | amarant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not really. If we only need it for petrochemical products, like medical plastics etc, losing 20% of available crude globally is a non-issue. We can probably stand to use a lot less plastics too. Outside of medicine it's mostly replaceable, and reducing our usage to less than 80% of current usage would be trivial if we didn't burn it for energy. In that scenario Iran can keep their strait. We won't need them. | |
| ▲ | estearum 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not really. Needing 1MM barrels gives you a lot more independence than needing 100MM. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It will be a boost for renewables, but hardly the end for natural gas. Keep in mind that while ~20% of natural gas was supplied via the Persian Gulf, that means 80% was not. I expect that batteries will eventually solve the day-night cycle for solar, but for seasonal storage, natural gas is much easier to store, so this still looks to me like a mix of energy technologies, with renewables getting a larger share. |
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| ▲ | lxgr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Wether it's wind, solar or hydro, a underappreciated property of renewable energy is the energy sovereignty they provide. If your sovereign territory happens to support them geographically. This is true for many, but not all countries. Also, without large storage capacity, you might end up being self-sufficient during sunny, windy days, but find yourself very dependent on your neighbor countries for imports on overcast days or at night without wind. The combination of all of this is especially unfortunate for hydro, where you're pretty much fully dependent on the geography you've been handed. So I'd say the self-sufficiency story of renewables doesn't fully hold. They benefit from regional cooperation and trade just as much as fossil fuels, if not more. (In my view, that's not really a counterargument, but it does raise the importance of having a well-integrated, cross-border grid even more.) |
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| ▲ | dalyons 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why do you have to go to absolutes? If 90% of countries can be 80+% self sufficient, that’s still an amazing thing | | |
| ▲ | leonidasrup 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | These 20% will still make you dependent on foreign country. For example Germany was dependent on Russian gas (before year 2022), which they later swapped for dependency on US LNG.
In addition, Germany is dependent on China for PV panels. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Germany was dependent on Russian gas (before year 2022), which they later swapped for dependency on US LNG. In addition, Germany is dependent on China for PV panels There is merit to putting one's energy policy on autopilot by doing the opposite of whatever Berlin is up to. |
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| ▲ | lxgr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you're 80% self-sufficient, you're not self-sufficient. | | |
| ▲ | ms_menardi 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If a kid lives on their own but their mom buys them groceries once per month and their dad swings by on thursdays with pizza and beer, that kid's still pretty darn self sufficient. Similarly, if a country can use 80% less oil or imported fuel than they would have without renewable energy, I think they're pretty self-sufficient. They don't have to be isolated from trade, it's okay to import some things and export others. Energy sources can be one of those things. But if they rely on energy imports, then when something disrupts their supply then they are in trouble. However if they get 80% of their energy from renewable sources, then they have significantly less of a problem. | | | |
| ▲ | ViewTrick1002 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But the dependency turns from a stop the world calamity to an annoyance. If you’re 95% self sufficient it will stay at headlines in the local press. | | |
| ▲ | lxgr 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Losing 20% of your electricity supply is a calamity, not an annoyance. So unless you want the calamity, you're still dependent on imports. Personally, I don't see an issue with that, as long as the neighboring countries you're importing from are reliable and will be able to supply at the times you need (i.e., they don't have the same possibly spiky import dependency as yourself). The other option is massive storage capacity. I just don't think it makes sense to just equate renewables with automatic sovereignty. | | |
| ▲ | nostrademons an hour ago | parent [-] | | Dunno about you, but losing 20% of my electricity supply is an annoyance. I just don't run the clothes dryer and hang my clothes on a rack instead. (And yes, I have solar + battery, and have lost 100% of my outside electricity supply on a half dozen occasions since having it installed, and my actual response has been to not run the clothes dryer.) |
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| ▲ | amarant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | More countries are able to produce renewable energy than are able to produce fossil energy. As such, renewable energy providers more energy sovereignty than fossil fuels which is what matters. If it's 100% or not is mostly irrelevant for the decision making. If we're being rational. Going for the worst possible option, only because the better options are not 100% perfect, is to be considered irrational behaviour. | |
| ▲ | MetaWhirledPeas 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > without large storage capacity That's like saying without gas stations good luck getting gasoline to the people. It goes without saying that batteries are an essential part of most renewable solutions. |
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| ▲ | wesleyd 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nice. Another upside seems to be that every Arab country in the Middle East seems to be on the same side as Israel. Nothing unites like a common enemy! |
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| ▲ | lambdasquirrel 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are still processes that we haven’t replaced petroleum for, like Haber-Bosch. China has already banned the export of fertilizer for this reason. |
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| ▲ | laurex 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's very helpful to understand energy density to evaluate what a shift to renewables actually entails or what is even possible. Vaclav Smil is a good source or for a less dense version Nate Hagens has podcasts about it. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For the US to start going that route we need a certain group of politicians to stop telling everybody that windmills are killing whales and birds en masse, claiming solar "isn't there yet" (somehow it never is), and that there is such thing as "clean coal." Literally the only thing I don't hear them fighting (loudly) against is hydro power. |
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| ▲ | Tadpole9181 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The US just gave away a billion dollars to NOT build renewable energy. |