| ▲ | metalliqaz 6 hours ago |
| How do you know it was due to staffing shortages? It is common at LGA for one controller to be handling Tower and Ground late at night. |
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| ▲ | jakelazaroff 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| You are describing a staffing shortage. |
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| ▲ | pc86 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Staffing shortage" doesn't mean "you can fit more people in the tower." You can't think of any scenario having one controller makes sense? | | |
| ▲ | Someone1234 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In general, I can. In LaGuardia? Aside from right after 9/11 and during COVID-19 when almost all commercial travel stopped, I cannot. I don't think people saying this stuff quite understand how busy LGA is even at night. I'd even go as far as to say that three minimum on duty with two in the tower at all times (for a ground/air split), would be the bare minimum for any hour or situation at LGA. | | |
| ▲ | volkl48 an hour ago | parent [-] | | It does quiet down eventually. There's no scheduled departures 22:55-5:45 and only a handful of arrivals 23:59-6:45. However, arrivals stay pretty heavy right up until 23:59 even on schedule and if you've got a lot of delayed flights (not exactly uncommon at LGA) - you may still have a lot of departures going out in the 23:00 hour. I would not be surprised to learn that they're staffed to an appropriate level for what the schedule says is supposed to be operating at that time, but a very inadequate level for what actually winds up operating at that time on many days. Initial analysis suggests they were running about 75% of full capacity in flight ops in the 15min prior to the accident. I doubt they were staffed to 75% of the daytime peak. |
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| ▲ | alistairSH an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can't think of any scenario having one controller makes sense? At one of the nation's busiest airports? Where there are two intersecting runways, both potentially with departing and arriving aircraft? Nope. But, sure, a single-runway regional airport can probably get by with a single controller. |
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| ▲ | arjie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Is he? I can see the number of hours worked as evidence of a shortage, but prima facie it is not obvious that a single controller handling both ground and air is evidence of a 'shortage' if it is routinely considered feasible in the industry. It could just be an efficiency choice for low-traffic times. Based on some googling since I'm not an expert it seems this is called 'position combining' in the US and is pretty routine across the world. Therefore, if this is a problem the primary cause cannot be US policy because non-US airports also do this thing. Here it's being done at SFO or so it seems: https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?FileExtension=... While searching I did find this other document where a GC (LC appears to be Local Control for local air traffic and GC is ground control) controller complains about combining due to short-staffing https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=19837915&Fi... Well, it'll be an interesting report from the NTSB at least. | | |
| ▲ | volkl48 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | An obvious issue is going to be that while it's supposed to be a lower-traffic time, if you've had delays cascading down the day - it may not be in reality. If the staffing doesn't adjust for delays shifting the time of flights, it would probably often leave you with an overworked controller. Looking at the normal schedules - if all is on schedule there'd be no departures in the 23:00 hour but you'd still have the arrivals side running pretty heavily. However, once you factor in things not being on schedule, as they evidently were not on that night, you get: ---------- The 15min before the accident had 14 flight operations (per Juan Browne/blancolirio going through the ADSB playback). And that's in marginal weather and at night, which makes things more complicated. That is 75% of the official maximum capacity of the airport - during the main part of the day where there's government-imposed caps on flights, it's capped at 74 operations per hour or about 18.5 per 15min. As such, it seems apparent that you would need just as much staffing (or at least 75% as much) at that time to safely handle the traffic volume that was occurring that night as you did in the main part of the day. Unless the normal staffing here was just 2 people, it seems clear that 1 is inadequate. | |
| ▲ | mannykannot 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "...routinely considered feasible..." What we are seeing here is the normalization of deviance. | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | FL410 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And therein lies the problem. Clearly, having one overworked controller running a combined tower is not safe nor sustainable. |
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| ▲ | zardo 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It seems like a critical enough role that you probably want two people there in case one has a medical emergency anyway. Even if it's not that busy. | | |
| ▲ | xeromal an hour ago | parent [-] | | I believe other areas can assist when something like that happens. |
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| ▲ | pc86 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Planes landing at a rate of one every 30-40 minutes isn't exactly "overworked." | | |
| ▲ | VK-pro 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don’t have time to check flight logs but I personally landed at LGA coming from MDW on Sunday. And I also know people who got diverted within the hour coming back to LGA that night. 30-40 minutes doesn’t seem accurate. That aside, if you’ve ever done operational staffing, you’d know that you should probably have at least one redundancy. When there is any chance of emergency or two events happening simultaneously, you should have more than one person. One last meta point. We live in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, and the highest air travel prices (some part is a function of longer distances I know). We should expect that we have ample coverage, if not over-coverage, at all times for one of our major metropolitan airports. Pay them. | |
| ▲ | bdamm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | 12am-5am is very quiet, at about 1 per hour. But the accident happened during the 10pm-12am time slot, which is not as busy as other times of day, but can still have workload spikes as evidenced by this situation. ATC should never work alone at any of the "Core 30" airports.
https://www.aspm.faa.gov/aspmhelp/index/Core_30.html | |
| ▲ | gortok 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In this case there were two arrivals within 4 minutes of each other and two departures, in addition to the emergency plane that had just aborted takeoff. | | |
| ▲ | pc86 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which is a completely reasonable amount of traffic for one controller to handle. This wasn't the controller's fault. The firetruck received a clearance, had that clearance revoked, and either didn't hear the revocation or ignored it. | | |
| ▲ | bombcar 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you have ever spent time listening to LiveATC you will realize that like everyone, "tunnel ear" is a real thing - if United 1002 has received the clearance/instructions they expect, read them back, and are proceeding it can be moderately difficult to get their attention again, even with perfect verbiage. | |
| ▲ | mannykannot 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The controller was not guilty of malfeasance, but clearing the trucks onto the runway with an airliner on short final was a mistake, no matter whatever else one could say about it. |
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| ▲ | SteveNuts 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is the contingency/continuity plan if the single controller becomes incapacitated while on duty with no warning to pilots? | | |
| ▲ | bombcar 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Same as if the radios stopped working or otherwise communication fails. Execute the planned procedures (which vary). Often Approach will take over the "tower" and operate in crippled mode (no clearances to cross active runways, you must go down to the end kind of thing). Some airports are uncontrolled at various times and would revert to that. Some airlines would require the pilot execute a missed approach and deviate to a towered airport, others may allow them to land. |
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| ▲ | cjrp 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That seems mad, given the volume of traffic they're working - even without emergencies. My local GA field is single controller, and that's VFR, grass runways, averages 40-50 movements/day. |
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| ▲ | afavour 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What you just described is a long term staffing shortage. |
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| ▲ | ryanmcbride 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe there should be more than one |
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| ▲ | metalliqaz 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Maybe. Lets see what the NTSB recommendations say. However despite the downvotes I still haven't seen evidence that they were running understaffed at that moment. What I do know is that the developing emergency on the tarmac due to an apparently hazardous smell in another plane is likely the cause of the confusion that led to this incident. That's a trigger that could have been exacerbated by fatigue but we don't have any evidence of that yet. | | |
| ▲ | RankingMember 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I still haven't seen evidence that they were running understaffed at that moment. I think the disagreement you see is based on the definition of what "understaffed" means. Having one ATC to do ground and air control simultaneously seems like an under-staffing situation to begin with, regardless of whether it's a common practice. | | |
| ▲ | thmsths 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is also the angle of: even if there is an appropriate amount of controllers in the tower at a given time, how they do it can also hint at the issue. Being an ATC is a taxing job, mandatory overtime and 60 hours work weeks screams understaffing to me. | | |
| ▲ | pc86 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is possible for ATC to be understaffed as a profession, LGA to be understaffed as an airport, individual controllers to be overworked, and for it to be 100% reasonable to have a single controller at LGA in the middle of the night. | |
| ▲ | adrr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Its weird that there strict laws that limit pilot hours to under 40 hours a week but no laws that restrict number of hours ATC works. |
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| ▲ | mmooss 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Having one ATC to do ground and air control simultaneously seems like an under-staffing situation to begin with Do we have evidence that one controller did all ground and air? The only evidence I've seen was the NY Times said that, according to a source, two controllers were working and two more were in the building. In situations like this there is as lot of disinformation. The best thing to do is not add to it - a pile of bad information is not improved by piling more on. The best thing is to patiently find reliable info and stick to it. | | |
| ▲ | RankingMember 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That one controller was handling both ground and air is still a bit of a tell that there was some short-handedness afoot, though, by my eye. > The best thing is to patiently find reliable info and stick to it. No disagreement here | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > That one controller was handling both ground and air ... Why do you (or why does anyone) think that? My point in the GP was, I have yet to see evidence that there was only one controller, and I have seen evidence that there were two. | | |
| ▲ | RankingMember 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because in the ATC recording you hear him directing both | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I get it now. That's of interest, definitely, but I wouldn't conclude it was universally true - that the one controller did both for everyone. |
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| ▲ | cyberax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can listen to the ATC recordings before and after the accident. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Does someone say there is only one controller working? Just because that particular recording has only one controller doesn't mean nobody else is working. | | |
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| ▲ | murat124 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | SPOF still applies here. You don't need evidence of fatigue or anything. You have only 1 of anything, you run the risk of ending up having nothing. |
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| ▲ | longislandguido 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Some people here coded the buttons that sometimes don't work when you check in for your flight. That makes them aviation experts. How dare you question wild assumptions. |
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| ▲ | pklausler 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "The system worked yesterday, so it should have worked forever." |
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| ▲ | jen20 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > It is common at LGA for one controller to be handling Tower and Ground late at night. What happens when they need the bathroom, or have some kind of medical problem? If it's really a common case for one controller to handle things, the system itself needs to be fundamentally rethought. |
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