| ▲ | keiferski a day ago |
| Don’t wealthier families hire tutors to prepare their children? That’s what happens in the US with the SAT/ACT. I think you’d need free, universal SAT tutoring available to everyone in order to be more meritocratic. |
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| ▲ | CalRobert a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| At the very least, it's complicated. I went to an appallingly bad, fundamentalist religious high school (not my choice) that didn't offer extracurriculars, honors classes (never mind AP!) etc. and if I hadn't been able to do exceedingly well on standardized tests I could not have gotten in to the colleges I did. My parents did not pay for any test prep. I did learn and practice on my own though, which is how I know that evolution does not, in fact, teach that you can grow wings if you want them badly enough. |
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| ▲ | chii a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| merit doesn't mean equal wealth spending to obtain a result. And it's not black and white. Someone rich spending a lot of money to obtain tutoring doesn't necessarily make their score higher, and there's also diminishing returns. Someone poor who do not afford private tutoring can also receive good score due to their natural talent and/or hard work in self-teaching/practicing. > universal SAT tutoring available to everyone in order to be more meritocratic. and that is now called school isnt it? Everybody gets at least some minimal standard of schooling. The fact is, meritocratic is meant to describe the opposite of nepotistic (or sometimes hereditary/aristocratic). Under a nepotistic system, no matter what you do, you cannot succeed without becoming the in-group somehow. |
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| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Someone rich spending a lot of money to obtain tutoring will make their score higher if they have any kind of aptitude. Likewise if they have easy access to books, extra study resources, a quiet space for study, no family distractions or challenges, and so on. Poor people typically have none of those extra resources. Some poor people with extreme talent will be able to overcome the challenges of relative poverty, but others with equal talent won't. It's extremely hard to create a true meritocratic system, and Gaokao certainly isn't it. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s still meritocratic in the sense of picking the people most capable of performing well in a higher academic setting. It’s unfair. But nonetheless true that students who were better able to prepare due to superior resources are nonetheless better prepared. | |
| ▲ | Ekaros a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | So wouldn't it then be fairest to punish kids with high income or high wealth parents? Say set median household income. If parents make double this the score is automatically halved. If they make half it is doubled. Same on gross wealth. More wealth there is bigger the cut. This would mean that says Musk's kids would need to get sufficiently higher scores than children of someone with no wealth. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This would just result in admitting students who weren’t prepared to handle the material. | |
| ▲ | robcohen a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you had that system, and I was Elon Musk's kids, I would feel entirely justified in paying half the taxes society expects me to pay. Let's see if that logic works both ways. |
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| ▲ | Avicebron a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Someone rich spending a lot of money to obtain tutoring doesn't necessarily make their score higher, and there's also diminishing returns. Someone poor who do not afford private tutoring can also receive good score due to their natural talent and/or hard work in self-teaching/practicing. If these are outliers it isn't really meritocratic. If there 100 desired spots that are allocated by the exam, and 1000 students, and wealth (tutors/extra time etc) moves the needle enough to make a meaningful difference, it's basically nepotistic just the in-group is who's parents can afford it. Depending on where you are this can compound each generation. | | |
| ▲ | adrian_b a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Tutoring can provide some advantage to the richer, but at least in my anecdotal experience I have never seen the advantage provided by tutors being able to match what really motivated poorer students could achieve by self study, at least not in the countries where in the past there was good access to public libraries, or today there may exist cheap Internet access. | |
| ▲ | close04 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If these are outliers it isn't really meritocratic. Merit is about demonstrated ability, not how much effort, time, or money was put into getting the ability. As long as you convert money into ability and ability into results, that's merit. Nepotism is when you convert money directly into results, buying a score. | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US at least most schools take into account both test scores and social economic factors. | | | |
| ▲ | genthree a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That it tends to become a caste system with extra steps (which steps provide a defense of the system as “fair”) is one of the chief criticisms of meritocracy (and criticism of the idea is where we got the term itself) | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent [-] | | So as a society do we want to have people performing tasks based on demonstrated aptitude to perform those tasks, or to have people performing tasks based on achieving certain social and political outcomes? | | |
| ▲ | genthree 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | The entire point of any such system is the latter thing anyway, regardless of how you go about it. I mean the higher-level point, like “why do we have any system at all?” | | |
| ▲ | chii 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > regardless of how you go about it i very much beg to differ. A poor but high aptitude student today is able to escape the "caste" they're born into. Under a true nepotistic system, this cannot happen no matter how much aptitude he/she possesses. |
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| ▲ | Geezus_42 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the point is that some start with an advantage when it comes to earning merit because by luck of birth they were born to parents with a lot of wealth. I don't think you can have a truly meritocratic system unless everyone starts on a level playing field with the same access to resources. That is not a system that exists anywhere on this planet. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | next [-] | | To achieve that you need to implement some kind of Harrison Bergeron system. | |
| ▲ | chii 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > a truly meritocratic system only if you twist what you mean by meritocracy to mean equality. Why don't you apply that exact same argument but to sports and athletics? People born with superior genes do perform better (ala, tall people in basketball). Merit doesn't mean everyone starts at the same spot. Merit means your outcome is determined by how good you are at it - no matter how you get to become that good. |
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| ▲ | tyjen a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Khan Academy was free and used to obtain 99th percentile SAT scores. Academic resources for success are abundantly available, but they require discipline, time, and effort. |
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| ▲ | PurpleRamen a day ago | parent [-] | | > Khan Academy was free and used to obtain 99th percentile SAT scores. Is it not free anymore? |
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| ▲ | mgfist a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well nothing is truly meritocratic - even with free tutoring, kids will still have different genetics, different home environments, different upbringings etc.. Colleges in the US that removed standardized testing from their applications, in the pursuit of trying to be more meritocratic, found that fewer students from underrepresented backgrounds got in, not more. In hindsight (and to some in foresight) this makes sense because now schools leaned more heavily on grades and extracurriculars, both of which can be gamed by wealthy families far more easily than a standardized test. |
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| ▲ | mikkupikku 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Well nothing is truly meritocratic How do you figure? Many things in life are meritocratic. Apply for a job welding, they'll ask you to weld some coupons. If you can do it, you get the job, if you can't then you can't. If your father was a welder or a banker makes no difference, merit is about being able to do the work, not whether life was fair to get you to that skill level. | |
| ▲ | Ekaros a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To me grades sound like easiest thing to tutor for. Especially if homework is involved. Even basic editing and feedback before submissions could make absolutely massive difference. | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are confusing meritocracy with egalitarianism. |
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| ▲ | picture a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| China has made for-profit extracurricular tutoring illegal since 2021. [1] Of course there can be under the table operations and discussion to be had about regionally biased gaokao difficulty, but I think it's worth recognizing gaokao being a real chance for upward class mobility, hence why it is so competitive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Reduction_Policy |
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| ▲ | ModernMech a day ago | parent [-] | | Oh so that explains it! Starting in 2020 when I was a new professor, I was contacted by a company that works with Chinese families to tutor their students directly. I would be paid $400 an hour to teach them online remotely. Originally I thought it was because of COVID lockdowns and that may be part of it. But the opportunities have continued since then. I stopped doing it as my career has become more involved but I still get solicitations from time to time, so it must be because of what you say. |
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| ▲ | mikkupikku a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tutors barely move exam scores, particularly if they're only hired for test prep. You can crush tests without cramming, tutors or any of that if you just pay attention in class and do all optional homework. |
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| ▲ | RugnirViking a day ago | parent | next [-] | | you can also make a lot of money buy selling things for more than you bought them for, and lose weight by simply eating less. You can feel better by sleeping more, and going to the gym every day. You can get ahead in your career by becoming great friends with your boss and your boss' boss. It turns out that often it being easy to describe in broad strokes how to do something doesn't make it easy to do in practise. | | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku a day ago | parent [-] | | Paying attention in class might be a legitimate issue requiring medication for some people, but otherwise it, and doing optional assignments, are a choice. | | |
| ▲ | hirvi74 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Paying attention in class might be a legitimate issue requiring medication for some people Considering I would be classified as a member of this group, let me ask: > but otherwise it, and doing optional assignments, are a choice If attention is a choice, then how reliably can you control your attention based your choice? For the sake of analogy, is being able to control one's attention like controlling one's breathe? As in, one can consciously be aware of and control their breathing to some degree, but without a conscious choice, breathing will still operate in the background. Or is attention something like a voluntary muscle movement which requires explicit intention? I am asking because I have/had little to no control over my ability to focus. Thus, I am curious what it is like for others. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah grades are mostly about grit. |
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| ▲ | azan_ a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Don’t wealthier families hire tutors to prepare their children? Effect of tutoring is greatly overstated. |
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| ▲ | Jensson 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Tutoring companies don't want you to know that though, so they push these articles saying rich people only get better scores thanks to tutoring. | |
| ▲ | xigoi a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | As a university tutor, I agree. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. |
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| ▲ | jostmey a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It could still be more fair than no standardized testing |
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| ▲ | prasadjoglekar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Take it to it's logical conclusion. Free universal choice of schools rather than being tethered to your home address. |
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| ▲ | Manuel_D a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sure, but tutoring involves learning and improving the skills at hand. Meritocracy doesn't mean equal opportunity, it means candidates are evaluated equally without regard to superficial characteristics like appearance. A meritocratic test will award higher scores to test takers that can read and analyze passages faster and solve math problems more reliability. Whether those test takers possess that ability innately, or built up that ability through loads of studying doesn't alter the fact that it's a meritocratic test. Of course candidates that study more have an advantage. But that doesn't make it non-meritocratic. That'd be like saying a marathon isn't meritocratic because some people spend more time training. |
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| ▲ | Manuel_D a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sure, but tutoring involves learning and improving the skills at hand. Meritocracy doesn't mean equal opportunity, it means candidates are evaluated equally without regard to superficial characteristics like appearance. Of course candidates that study more have an advantage. But that doesn't make it non-meritocratic. That'd be like saying a marathon isn't meritocratic because some people spend more time training and conditioning. |
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| ▲ | WarmWash a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The actual problem is that we are not blank slates, and wealthy parents tend to be wealthy because they are more intelligent, and likewise give birth to predisposed-to-be-intelligent babies. I always find it slightly ironic how mother nature gets so much reverence from ostensibly communal types, despite her being the most shamelessly power hungry entity ever conceived. |
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| ▲ | triceratops a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > wealthy parents tend to be wealthy because they are more intelligent Not "more intelligent", just "unusual in some way". People can be wealthier than average for all sorts of reasons unrelated to intelligence (as defined by IQ). Here's a sampling of them: Being social and good at sales. Most successful real estate agents I've met don't strike me as particularly brilliant. Working a boring job, living modestly, and investing in index funds for 20 years. Winning the lottery (either literally, or by accidentally buying something cheaply that turned out to be worth a lot) Marrying rich and divorcing. Inheriting wealth. Being a successful athlete or entertainer. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | next [-] | | A lot of those correlate with intelligence and “grit.” Being good at selling to people absolutely requires intelligence. So do many entertainment fields, and athletic achievement more than you might expect. Investing consistently in an index fund over 20 years requires a bit of intelligence and a lot of grit. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I defined intelligence up-front as IQ points. IQ isn't perfect but it's the best single measure of raw cognitive ability we have. Grit is basically conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is not correlated to intelligence. [1] This is why the stereotype of the dim but methodical plodder exists. Sales ability is obviously a thing, since there are successful and unsuccessful people. But being able to connect with people (EQ) is crucial to be good at sales. Likeable people make more sales than unlikeable people. Being likeable is orthogonal to IQ. I'm not denigrating successful entertainers' and athletes' cognitive abilities. They are brilliant in their fields. That's not the necessarily same thing as IQ. I'd expect the IQ distribution among that population be the same as the general population. That means some of them are high-IQ individuals in addition to being world-class singers or swimmers or actors, but most are average IQ. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10416... | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > and athletic achievement more than you might expect. Yeah, it flies in the face of Hollywood's jock/nerd dichotomy, but in my experience there's an awful lot of correlation between honors students and athletic participation. I think the root of it might be good genetics and early life nutrition contributing heavily to both. |
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| ▲ | WarmWash a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Intelligence correlates highly with not having anti-social behaviors. So a lot of the time, it's not "being smart" that carries you to wealth, its avoiding the "disastrously stupid things" that stops you from being poor. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Intelligence correlates highly with not having anti-social behaviors. If we're talking about IQ, then there isn't strong evidence for this. | |
| ▲ | hirvi74 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Looking at all the horrible and macabre weapons of warfare, destruction, and death that humans have created, I find it hard to believe those instruments were imagined, engineered, and developed by unintelligent individuals. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | They weren't. Intelligent people can be anti-social too, and usually with terrifying large scale outcomes. But thankfully, most crime in the aggregate is done by unintelligent people. | | |
| ▲ | hirvi74 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | If a child shows some sort of exceptional proclivity for academics, then I strongly believe there needs to be an examination for empathy and pro-social behaviors prior to being enrolled in some sort of advanced program. > most crime in the aggregate is done by unintelligent people. That is a tough one. For I believe there is more to reality than what data can currently capture. While I do agree that most violent crime is carried out by unintelligent people, there is an untold amount of crimes being committed by individuals that are average to beyond intelligent. So, I would argue the unintelligent ones get caught more frequently and that skews the perception that they commit more crime. | | |
| ▲ | Jensson 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If a child shows some sort of exceptional proclivity for academics, then I strongly believe there needs to be an examination for empathy and pro-social behaviors prior to being enrolled in some sort of advanced program. Luckily that is no longer needed, as in capitalism such a person can provide good value to society just via greed. He shouldn't be a leader, but a greedy engineer isn't an issue. |
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| ▲ | atomic_reed a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | | |
| ▲ | simonask a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This take is bafflingly unscientific. You are spewing pure unadulterated ideology here - a particularly ugly one too. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash a day ago | parent [-] | | Yes, behavioral genetics is the climate science of the left. If there are PhDs and university departments studying it, I'm not gonna be someone who sticks there head in the sand for the sake of their flavor of political identity. | | |
| ▲ | simonask a day ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | Jensson 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | simonask 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, I used it as a euphemism for “fascist”, which is a somewhat stronger descriptor than simply “wrong”. The notion that the deeply oppressive status quo is somehow fair and just is one of the worst post-hoc rationalizations that purportedly smart people can fall into. Open your eyes. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | What studies support your critiques? | | |
| ▲ | simonask 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | The amount of effort I’m willing to dedicate to counter wild Social Darwinism is very low. Please just do the bare minimum and go to Wikipedia. |
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| ▲ | ryandrake a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > wealthy parents tend to be wealthy because they are more intelligent, and likewise give birth to predisposed-to-be-intelligent babies What the actual.... This is on HN? How low have we sunk here? |
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