| ▲ | igor47 18 hours ago |
| Strong words. I wonder if the author has PTSD from poorly managed teams and has never had the fortune to work in a high performance well managed collaborative environment. I agree these are rare compared to the other kind, but they exist. Groups of people can produce more than lone wolves. One person didn't build the pyramids, the Linux kernel, or Amazon Web services. Even when responsibility for a top level domain rests with a single person, you still have to coordinate the work of people building the individual components. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| One of the features of my work, these days, is that I work alone. I worked in [pretty high-functioning] teams, for most of my career. Teams are how you do big stuff. I’m really good at what I do, but I’ve been forced to reduce my scope, working alone. I do much smaller projects, than our team used to do. But the killer in teams, is communication overhead, and much of that, is imposed by management, trying to get visibility. If the team is good, they often communicate fine, internally. Most of the examples he gave, are tools of management, seeking visibility. But it’s also vital for management to have visibility. A team can’t just be a “black box,” but a really good team can have a lot of autonomy and agency. You need good teams, and good managers. If you don’t have both, it’s likely to be less-than-optimal. |
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| ▲ | hnthrow0287345 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >trying to get visibility They could review PRs and commits and specs to get visibility and reduce comms overhead, if they had the skills and time. The non-technical manager also takes great conveniences in making technical people spend their time translating things. But no one ever asks the manager to learn new skills as much as they make developers do it. | | |
| ▲ | plagiarist 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The standups are also organized around disrupting a small group of people for the convenience of one. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Standups should eliminate almost all other meetings engineers need to attend. Except to go deeper on questions that came up in standup that cannot be instantly resolved. Otherwise yeah there’s really no point. | | |
| ▲ | depr 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you mean standups as part of Scrum? Scrum dictates several other meetings. | |
| ▲ | plagiarist 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I would be pleased with the standup if it eliminated other meetings, but that has definitely not been my experience. | | |
| ▲ | parasubvert 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | there should be only 3 regular meetings in an agile engineering team
- weekly iteration planning (1-2 hours max)
- daily standup (15 mins max)
- weekly demo & retro (1-2 hours max) literally everything else is work off the kanban board or backlog. in my teams everyone was told to decline all meetings unless it explicitly led to the completion of a weekly planned story/task. this way all meetings for the team have a clear agenda and end in mind. for mandatory external meetings & running interference with external parties, there are ways to insulate the majority of the team from that. | | |
| ▲ | sunrunner 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Is that three kinds of regular meetings? Because I count 8 meetings (and four kinds, as I don't think I've ever had demo and retro combined due to different groups of people being in both). |
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| ▲ | newAccount2025 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Strong agree. When I started managing there was very little oversight. It wasn’t perfect and we went a bit astray, and we also did phenomenal work and had everyone on the team deeply engaged and moving with autonomy. On my second team, the visibility theater took over, upper management set and reset and reset and reset our direction, and nobody was happy. In retrospect, I should have said no immediately. Trusting and empowering your people is hard to beat. | |
| ▲ | antisthenes 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Communication overhead is a quadratic function. In teams with n people it takes n^2 time to keep everyone informed. That's why the most effective teams are wolf packs - roughly 6-10 highly performant members where communication overhead is still low enough that it barely matters, but have enough people to be way more productive than an individual. Obviously there's a minimum level of competence you need to have for this to work. The smaller the team the less freeloaders are tolerated. | | |
| ▲ | josephg 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | In my opinion, 4 is the best size. 7-10 is horrible - meetings and conversations use up so much time. You want to break a team of 10 in half if you can. Not always easy. But if you can manage it, do it. |
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| ▲ | icegreentea2 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a provocative title, but I think this section better captures his scope of argument - "Collaboration-as-ideology has made ownership and responsibility feel antisocial, which is a hell of a thing, given that ownership is the only mechanism that gets anything across the finish line.", as well as "But there’s a huge difference between communication and collaboration as infrastructure to support individual, high-agency ownership, and communication and collaboration as the primary activity of an organisation". I think the author has identified that most organizations both fail at effective collaboration, and also use collaboration to paper over their failures. I think the author maybe over-corrects by leaning on the idea that "only small teams actually get stuff done", and honestly I don't think anyone should be using SLA Marshall/Men Against Fire as an analogy for like... office work (if nothing else, even if you take his words at face value, then the percentage of US infantry who fired their rifles went up from 15-25% in WW2 to ~50% in Korea due to training improvements), but I can get behind the idea that a lot of organizations are setup to diffuse responsibility. I also do think it's interesting to think about building the Pyramids. For the vast majority of people involved... I don't think modern audiences would call their work relationship or style "collaborative". Usually we use "collaborative" in opposition (at different times) to "working alone", "working with strict boundaries", and "being highly directed in what to do". Being on a work gang, or even being a team foreman is very much "no working alone", but those were also likely highly directed jobs (you must bring this specific stone to this specific location by this time) with strict boundaries. |
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| ▲ | pknomad 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I think the author strays a bit away from the title. The author says, "The collaboration industry has spent a fortune obscuring a dirty truth: most complex, high-quality work is done by individuals or very small groups operating with clear authority and sharp accountability" which means collaboration can work... in the right environment and with the right people. I work in R&D and I could not imagine not working in a collaborative environment. It's not reasonable to have expertise at everything and it's understood that things have to get done no matter whose name is on the ticket/story. I also agree on you calling out Men against Fire example as well. That's not a collaboration issue, that's a training issue (amongst other things). And that problem went away as you said. > By 1946, the US Army had accepted Marshall’s conclusions, and the Human Resources Research Office of the US Army subsequently pioneered a revolution in combat training which eventually replaced firing at ‘bulls eye’ targets with deeply ingrained ‘conditioning’ using realistic, man-shaped ‘pop-up’ targets that fall when hit. Psychologists know that this kind of powerful ‘operant conditioning’ is the only technique which will reliably influence the primitive, mid-brain processing of a frightened human being. Fire drills condition terrified school children to respond properly during a fire. Conditioning in flight simulators enables frightened pilots to respond reflexively to emergency situations. And similar application and perfection of basic conditioning techniques increased the rate of fire to approximately 55 percent in Korea and around 95 percent in Vietnam. | | |
| ▲ | JackFr 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It was also probably never true. The author handwaves away 'disagreement about his methods', but SLA Marshall was also simply a liar. He claimed interviews he never did and lied about his own combat experience and the circumstances of his own commission. |
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| ▲ | stanleykm 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed. I came in the comments to say something similar. I think the author raises some interesting points worth consideration but their perspective is so incredibly cynical. He mentioned a small team that made the Apollo computer program. Well it took an awful lot more than a computer program to get to the moon. I don’t think anybody would argue that there are people who don’t pull their weight out there but there is so much evidence that people working together actually works that it makes you wonder who hurt the author so much. |
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| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's also a lot of evidence it doesn't work. It's not either/or. This piece is more of a whine about a certain kind of office culture, which the author - unreasonably - generalises to collaboration as a whole. There's likely a lot of money to be made by identifying and defining good vs bad collaborative cultures. Both are real. But a lot of "good" practices are more cargo culty than genuinely productive, and the managers who really do make it work seem to get there more by talent and innate skill than learned effort. | |
| ▲ | forgetfreeman 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I fail to grasp the basis of folks knee-jerk dismissal of just about anything that strikes them as "cynical". Like, what world do you live in that cynicism isn't a signal of clear vision? |
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| ▲ | gdulli 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Groups of people can produce more than lone wolves. It's not a linear scale. A lone wolf can't produce the latest Assassin's Creed game. A committee can't produce Stardew Valley or Balatro. They're different capabilities, not a simple matter of more/less. |
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| ▲ | Levitating 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I can't say anything about how the Pyramids or AWS was build. But the Linux Kernels maintainence is full of responsibilities assigned to individual people. |
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| ▲ | pas 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | yes, it seems that the author is against the typical corporate bullshit faux collab (where people are overloaded with distractions, and the whole culture is about "managing expectations", managing up, showing impact), not against delegation, supervision, review, and a few well positioned veto points |
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| ▲ | rob74 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| At first, I also thought that rejecting collaboration excludes any kind of teamwork, but then I noticed the quotation marks - so they're apparently only rejecting quote-unquote-collaboration (as in "collaboration theatre": endless calls with no tangible outcome, wanting to involve everyone in decisions etc.), not actual collaboration (which is also consistent with what the article itself says). |
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| ▲ | gotwaz 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Depends on the problem being solved. And how frequently the core prob changes. Cuz nothing is static in an ever changing universe. What organization, skills, leadership is required to explore a jungle for gold is very different from what organization, skills and leadership is required to run a gold mine. So we get explore-exploit tradeoffs, satisficing vs optimizing choices etc. |
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| ▲ | ubermonkey 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yeah, the sheer joy I've gotten from being part of a few collaborative teams in my career was amazing. It was like we all got smarter by working together. |