| ▲ | RealityVoid 12 hours ago |
| That's rich, the guy threatening the existence of NATO more than any other factor is trying to bolster NATO. I struggle to imagine how you square this in your mind. |
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| ▲ | flyinglizard 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| At the outset, he doesn't want to carry the burden of NATO alone. Maybe he has other strategic interests in mind where US deviates from the rest of the world (like Greenland) but he's entirely right that NATO really depends on the US. Trump's attitude towards NATO member state spend it widely publicized [0] so I don't think there's much to debate here. Trump wanted member states to spend more, not less. He was somewhat prescient during his 45th presidency, given what happened in Ukraine in 2022 and how it forced US to spend huge amounts of money and military hardware which the EU simply didn't have. Maybe with a stronger standing EU army, that invasion would not have happened in the first place. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01495933.2021.19... |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > NATO really depends on the US. Yes. By design. But if the US decouples, the rest of the countries can and will make their own alliance, with blackjack and hookers. Greenland thing is peak wierdness and the only explanation of it would be pride, stupidity or active undermining of NATO. > Trump's attitude towards NATO member state spend it widely publicized [0] so I don't think there's much to debate here. Trump wanted member states to spend more, not less. Yes. But, you have a very shallow reading of this and you're taking things at face value. He latched on the spending as a pretext, and as a way to increase US income for the defense industry. He doesn't give a rat's ass about the security of NATO countries. US has entered a very transactional, bully, phase and this is a bad way to maintain international standing. | |
| ▲ | adwn 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > it forced US to spend huge amounts of money and military hardware which the EU simply didn't have - Europe's monetary aid for Ukraine far outweighs that of the US. - The US military aid for Ukraine mostly consisted of old and obsolete hardware. - Since about a year or so, all weapons and munitions delivered by the US are paid for by Europe. | | |
| ▲ | RealityVoid 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > - Since about a year or so, all weapons and munitions delivered by the US are paid for by Europe. Huh, I wonder what happened a year or so ago? What could have led to the US cutting off so much support? /s |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also, I took a look on the paper you linked. I have no idea what you want to prove with it, since it all but confirms the stance I already explained: "There was also a second related initiative, the European Defense Fund, that will support continental defense research and development. The projects were widely seen as attempts to address a long-standing American concern – that Europe lacks usable military equipment, and is overly reliant on Washington for military deployments.
But instead of reacting with satisfaction that the continent was finally addressing a long-standing weakness, the United States expressed frustration, noting that the projects could decrease trans-Atlantic cooperation and could also cut out American defense companies from bidding on future European defense projects."
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > At the outset, he doesn't want to carry the burden of NATO alone. The US chose to be the premiere military power and as a result reaped the benefits that come with having bases all over the world. This absurd claim by Trump that the relationship is one-sided is completely without merit. It was mutually beneficial, arguably better for the US. Just like being the world’s reserve currency. The complicated system of soft power reinforced by the threat of hard power that the US created over the last 80 years was no small feat and frankly we will never get that back now. Maybe it’s for the best! But this nonsense about NATO being a one-sided deal where Europe overwhelmingly benefits from US dollars/military presence is absolutely ridiculous and just another piece of evidence that Trump has no clue how foreign policy works. Additionally, any argument about not wanting to spend all that money lacks legitimacy given how the administration is spending. |
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| ▲ | y-curious 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| You don’t think that the person you’re replying to is Donald Trump, do you? He’s not wrong even though I can see why amassing independent defense didn’t feel necessary all this time |
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| ▲ | RealityVoid 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | > You don’t think that the person you’re replying to is Donald Trump, do you? I'm confused how this interpretation could ever come about. No, I mean his point about "Trump trying to bolster NATO" is comic, as Trump is actively weakening NATO, no matter his stated goals wrt. improving funding and having member states "carry their load". _Especially_ his threats to Greenland and Canada, for no apparent reason. It's really mind-boggling. Perhaps my fault, since I expect mental consistency from post-truth populists and authoritarians. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Turns out consistency is overrated. We talk as if it's a bare minimum, but there isn't actually any penalty for violating it. We've still got some kind of karmic notion that inconsistency is bad for you in the long run. Maybe it is, but that run keeps getting longer and longer. | | |
| ▲ | RealityVoid 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Having contact with reality is quite important when critical moments arise. Fantasy can proper you quite high, but there is a breaking point where it can't carry the day. Trump & Co are both post-truth and detached for reality. I am a bit scared for your country when you get a post-truth populist that is NOT detached from reality. If you can't deal with a buffoon like Trump, how will you be able to deal with someone who is half competent? Truth be told, I don't know how to deal with these people. Not that my country fared any better with this kind of rhetoric in last couple of years. But we don't have the democratic tradition as rich as you had (or at least I felt you had). I feel like despair will be the feeling for me this decade. | | |
| ▲ | jfengel 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a good question. His supporters like the buffoonery. It allows them to see what they want to in his actions. It's remarkable that he has the full-throated support of the theocrats while being blatantly an atheist. And conversely he has surrounded himself with people who clearly hate Christianity, but gloss over his pandering to the religious right. That wouldn't be possible if he were any smarter. Nor is he a Boris Johnson type character, playing the clown while being quite well educated in private. The right wing coalition will survive and thrive even without him. But it's hard to predict just how, because it will have to adapt. |
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