I feel like there was a brief period when middle class came to existence and started mimicking customs of the upper class, which were very complicated because the upper class was mostly bored and had invented this shit to kill the time. Then two things happened:

1. Upper class stopped being formal because formality stopped being a signal of upper class.

2. Middle class stopped having social gatherings in general.

So, like, "it is a part of the culture" in the same sense as traditional outfits are a part of the culture - most people have very vague awareness, nobody really cares.

▲

lo_zamoyski 2 days ago | parent [-]

> invented this shit to kill the time

This is unnecessarily flippant, trivializing, and reductive.

The upper classes had the time and position to refine manners. I think one mistake people make is to think manners are arbitrary nonsense. But manners, when fitting, honor the self and others with conduct that suits the dignity of the human person and functions as a sign of that dignity. You cannot tell me that a man hunched over a table cramming food down his throat gaping at a television is no different than one who eats according to the above custom of etiquette.

I’m not one for stiff artifice especially when slavishly applied, but I don’t think manners as such are arbitrary. That nobody cares would explain why so many people look like slobs and behave like boors.

If we begin with human nature and then view the virtues as perfections that actualize the fullness of that nature, then it becomes clearer that some behavior is more fitting and honored better by certain practices.

▲

TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

One of the true markers of being upper class is that you can get away with literal atrocities (see Epstein and co) as long as you're discrete enough and/or polished enough when talking to underlings and wannabes.

The upper classes in the UK regularly practice tone policing, where legitimate dissent is waved away as uncouth, even though what they say and do is far worse in private, and sometimes in public.

If you're looking for human dignity, I don't think this is its natural home.

	▲	jacquesm 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Exactly. The Royal formerly known as Prince Andrew for sure knew how to use his fork properly.

▲

Dylan16807 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> You cannot tell me that a man hunched over a table cramming food down his throat gaping at a television is no different than one who eats according to the above custom of etiquette.

Cramming is the only real problem there because it implies not experiencing the food. Seating position does not actually affect dignity or honor, and "gaping at a tv" can be worse or better than the alternative depending on the purpose and mood of the gathering.

And the rules applied to utensils in particular are a waste of thought.

▲

anal_reactor 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> when fitting

This phrase is doing a lot of heavy lifting, because what one considers basic etiquette another considers a theatre. The end result is often that people gather in order to perform the spectacle of manners rather than use manners to facilitate a social gathering.