| ▲ | elif 4 hours ago |
| I seriously doubt there is a country on earth which lacks the capability to detect an aircraft carrier's presence in the Mediterranean sea. We are not talking about stealth vehicles. |
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| ▲ | deepsun 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Mediterranean maybe (although I'm not sure), but it's actually very hard to find a ship, even as large as an aircraft carrier, in the ocean. The empty space is just too big. Satellites have hard time taking pictures of every square mile of a sea to find any ship, yet alone the one you need. |
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| ▲ | the8472 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ships are giant hunks of metal and radio emitters. They light up on SAR satellites[0]. Sentinel-1 gets whole earth coverage and a revisit time of 1-3 days[1] with two active satellites. And that's the public stuff, if you can afford a fleet or even some extra fuel to steer them into interesting orbits you can get faster revisits. [0] https://x.com/hwtnv/status/2031326840519041114
[1] https://sentiwiki.copernicus.eu/__attachments/1672913/Revisi... | | |
| ▲ | julosflb 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a french company (https://unseenlabs.com/fr/) that specializes in tracking ship at sea through observing their RF emission from space. Cool tech. I'm pretty sure their main clients are not all civil... | |
| ▲ | rustyhancock an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | And they also don't travel alone. 5-10 ships moving at speed across the ocean. Blasting the skies with radar. Its as easy as anything is to find it in the ocean. And were pretty damn good at tracking ships at sea even small fishing vessels let alone a floating city. The threat model to CSGs are basically nuclear submarines from nations that would simply tail the group if needed. |
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| ▲ | cbsks 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I really don’t want to work for the defense industry, but I have to admit that they do have very fun problems to solve. You know there are people at NRO who are dedicated to ship tracking via satellite. I assume they can easily track ships without cloud cover, but how do they do it when it’s cloudy? Heat signatures? Synthetic Aperture Radar? Wake detection? | | |
| ▲ | jasonwatkinspdx 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | ELINT and SAR. For the first one, just look at wikipedia lists of government says that fly as little triangular constellations, like Yaogan 9A, 9B, 9C on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaogan Those are ELINT birds that use multilateration to spot emitters globally. SAR can spot wakes far, far, larger than ships using the same techniques as SAR measuring ground erosion, etc. | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'd be mildly surprised if they not using SAR for this all the time, not only during cloud cover. The Soviet Union was using radar satellites (the RORSATs) to track carriers decades ago. | | |
| ▲ | mapt 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Neither SAR nor high resolution optical sensing are trivial at panopticon scale. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GTpBMPjjFc is a good overview of what's up there so far, and what's coming as they really try to scale the technology. Bandwidth and processing are substantial bottlenecks with SAR; Only targeted and stationary applications have been broadly useful so far, and more focus has been put on planes than satellites for this. SAR is not as simple as taking a static image with a fixed resolution, your sensing window has got a target velocity and distance in mind and the antenna and processing needs to be tuned for that. I would think that medium and high orbit optical tracking (daytime, cloudless sky) is probably used, because with video you can reasonably track subpixel targets if they're high contrast, without a lot of data transmission requirements. | | |
| ▲ | Sanzig 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Bandwidth and processing are substantial bottlenecks with SAR; Only targeted and stationary applications have been broadly useful so far, and more focus has been put on planes than satellites for this. I'm not sure why you assume this, this is factually incorrect. Satellite based SAR has been successfully used for civilian ship detection applications (traffic management, illegal fishing, smuggling detection, etc) for over three decades. I am sure its military use goes back much further. > SAR is not as simple as taking a static image with a fixed resolution, your sensing window has got a target velocity and distance in mind and the antenna and processing needs to be tuned for that. No? SAR satellites take thousands of SAR images of stationary scenes every day. It's true that object motion in the scene introduces artifacts, specifically displacement from true position - this is often called the "train off track" phenomenon, as a train moving at speed when viewed with SAR from the right angle will look like it's driving through the adjacent field rather than on the track. However, this isn't a significant problem, and can actually be useful in some situations (eg: looking at how far a ship is deflected from its wake to estimate its speed). | | |
| ▲ | convolvatron 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | 40 years ago the USN was working on using SAR with a elliptical kalmann filter to detect _submarine_ wakes. I assume things haven't digressed since then. |
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| ▲ | dnautics 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > You know there are people at NRO who are dedicated to ship tracking via satellite. I feel like there must be people at NRO whi are dedicated to sub tracking via satellite. | |
| ▲ | drivebyhooting 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wish defense paid better. The problems are infinitely more interesting than ads. And it’s not like social media is a saint anyway. | | |
| ▲ | wahnfrieden 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hmmm on the one hand murder, on the other hand ads | | |
| ▲ | tehjoker an hour ago | parent [-] | | It would be fine if "defense" is what was meant, but they recently changed it back to a far more honest "department of war". | | |
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| ▲ | wolfi1 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | when it's cloudy, heat signatures won't help, infrared is blocked by clouds |
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| ▲ | mytailorisrich 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Satellites only have to track, not find. Aircraft carriers sail from home ports and are frequently visible to all. The Charles de Gaulle was previously in Denmark for instance, then obviously everyone can also see you crossing the English Channel and Straight of Gibraltar. So from there it is only a matter of keeping an eye on it for anyone with satellites. So obviously all the "big guys" know where the other guys' capital ships are. | |
| ▲ | charcircuit 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You would only need to find it once, potentially at a port, and then you can follow it. | | |
| ▲ | matkoniecz 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | This capability is available only to few countries on planet. Not all of them. | | |
| ▲ | fxtentacle 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can rent access to nearly real-time custom satellite targeting for <$3k per image. That means while you're correct that not all countries can afford it, most can. | | |
| ▲ | maxerickson 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So you task the satellite to where you know the ship is? | | |
| ▲ | exe34 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Would you prefer to lose it first? | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | To get a naval fix, you usually define an "area of uncertainty" around the last confirmed location of the ship. The area is usually a circle with the radius being the maximum distance the ship/group could travel at full speed. So, you don't exactly "know" where the ship is, but you can draw a hypothetical geofence around where it's likely to be, and scan that area. | | |
| ▲ | Phemist 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | So the satellite can know where the ship is, because it knows where it isn't? Then it's a simple matter of subtracting the isn't from the is, or the is from the isn't (whichever is greater)? |
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| ▲ | matkoniecz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What if US government bans US-based companies from selling pictures within area where carrier operates? (of all "national security" reasons these is one of more reasonable ones) | | |
| ▲ | rocqua 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Figure out where you can't buy pictures to narrow it down, if you want a more exact match, pay for pictures from that area from non US providers. | |
| ▲ | blitzar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Planet Labs PBC, a leading provider of high resolution images taken from space, said Friday it would hold back for 96 hours images of Gulf states targeted by Iranian drone attacks. It did not say if it had acted at the request of US authorities. https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/leading-satellite-firm-hol... | |
| ▲ | marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do them publish the banned coordinates in a list too? Maybe they could put the reason at each line. |
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| ▲ | SteveNuts 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I admit I'm incredibly naive on this subject, but what makes it so hard to track an object as large as an aircraft carrier when starting from a known position such as a naval port? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As described above the issue would be continuous observation, not how to follow it assuming you never lose sight of it. | | |
| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You certainly can't do continuous observation but even just with commercial satellite offerings you can get pretty close. For example nowadays Planet Labs [1] offers 30-50cm resolution imaging at a rate of one image or 120sec video stream every 90 minutes over a given 500 km^2 region. There is no situation where an aircraft carrier is going to be capable of evading a commercial satellite offering with that frequency and resolution. Once you know approximately where it is or even where it was in the semi-recent past, it's fairly trivial to narrow in and build a track off the location and course. 1. https://www.planet.com/products/satellite-monitoring/ | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Commercial operations like Planet Labs currently cover most of the Earth multiple times a day. |
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| ▲ | malfist 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Clouds occasionally happen | | | |
| ▲ | chias 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What would you track them with? Follow them with helicopters and/or boats? | | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Break out the pocket book and pay Planet Labs to do it. You could do it with much less frequent visits than this probably the search area for it every 2 hours isn't very large and image recognition systems are pretty good. The big threat is cloud cover. https://www.planet.com/pulse/12x-rapid-revisit-announcement/ | | |
| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Note that that article is from 2020. Nowadays the frequency is actually down to 90 minutes/1.5hr. The resolution is up as well and they can do massive image capture (~500km^2) and video (120sec stream) from their passes. Also nowadays they provide multi-spectal capture as well which can mostly see through cloud cover even if it takes a bit more bandwidth and postprocessing. | |
| ▲ | matkoniecz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What if US government bans US-based companies from selling pictures within area where carrier operates? (of all "national security" reasons these is one of more reasonable ones) | | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem then is the black out zones themselves reveal a lot as well if adversaries can find their bounds. That narrows the search area for their own observation satellites immensely even if it's too large to respond to IRL. | |
| ▲ | jyoung8607 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If the restricted area is large, a carrier is regionally disabling for an imagery provider. If it's smaller (and therefore must move over time to follow the carrier group) as soon as the imagery provider starts refusing sales in an area, any customer can test and learn its perimeter with trial purchases, find a coarse center, and learn its course and speed. You don't care about anything else until there's actual hostilities. | |
| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well in that case congratulations. You've just made it easier. Now you don't even have to track them. You just have to look for the blacked out box, the "error we can't show you this", reused imagery from their long running historical imagery dataset, or improperly fused/healed imagery after alteration. So now you don't have to do the tracking, just find the hole. And then you can use a non-US provider to get direct imagery now that you know exactly where to look. | |
| ▲ | torginus 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It would make tracking impossible, as no other country operates satellites. |
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| ▲ | filleduchaos 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ...literally yes (to the latter)? Is that not exactly why modern warships have to implement things like measures to reduce their radar cross section? If you could actually just rely on "ocean too big" then there would be no need for that. | | |
| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is in part for small crafts (frigates and corvettes) but for pretty much anything larger there's no concealing those ships. The primary reason however for minimizing radar cross section and increasing radar scatter is to harden protections against radar based weapon systems during a conflict. Even if the ship is still visible in peacetime operations, once electronic countermeasures/ECM are engaged, it gets an order of magnitude harder for guided missiles to still "see" the ship. Depending on the kit, once missiles are in the air the ship and all of their friends in their strike group/squadron is going to start jamming radar, popping decoys, and trying to dazzle the missiles effectively enough for RIM-174/SM-6, RIM-66/SM-1, and RIM-67/SM-2s to intercept it without the missiles evading. And should the missile make it to close-in range then it's just praying that the phalanx/CIWS takes care of it. And if everything fails then all that jamming and dazzling + the reduced radar cross section is going to hopefully result in the missiles being slightly off target/not a complete kill on the vessel. So they still serve a purpose. Just not for stealth. Instead serving as compounding increases to survival odds in engagement scenarios. |
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| ▲ | vntok 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You don't even need a free account on flightradar24 to track its planes, at least two launch from it and pattern circle around it almost daily. | | |
| ▲ | matkoniecz 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That relies on transponders which can be switched of if decision is taken to do so. | | |
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| ▲ | bell-cot 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those are the few countries that France needs to worry about. Doesn't matter whether Estonia, Honduras, Laos, and Luxembourg can track their carrier, or not. EDIT: In confined waters (like the Mediterranean), many more countries could track the carrier if they cared to. Even back in the 1950's, the Soviets got quite adept at loading "fishing boats" with electronic equipment, then trailing behind US Navy carrier groups. | |
| ▲ | geeunits 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | was | |
| ▲ | swarnie 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Billy Boy from the Island can use commercial satellites to map mud huts for his vaccine NGO, i'm sure any nation state can find a few quid to locate a war ship. | |
| ▲ | s5300 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | ajross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > it's actually very hard to find a ship, even as large as an aircraft carrier, in the ocean I just ran some googled numbers over my envelope, and I get that the Mediterranean sea (great circle distance between Gibraltar and Beirut is 2300mi) is about 14000x larger than the bow-to-stern length (858') of the carrier. That's... not that terribly difficult as an imaging problem. Just a very tractable number of well-resolved 12k phone camera images would be able to bullseye it. Obviously there are technical problems to be solved, like how to get the phones into the stratosphere on a regular basis for coverage, and the annoyance of "clouds" blocking the view. So it's not a DIY project. But it seems eminently doable to me. The barriers in place are definitely not that the "empty space is just too big". The globe is kinda small these days. | | |
| ▲ | MengerSponge 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And you've defined a harder problem! Once you've found it once it's much easier to find in the future: it can only go so fast, and it's constrained to stay in relatively deep water. | | |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Satellites have hard time taking pictures of every square mile of a sea to find any ship, yet alone the one you need. That's why satellites use radars and scientific instrumentation magnetometers to find stuff like ships or even subs underwater. | | |
| ▲ | nradov 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There might be some secret technology that we're unaware of but as far as we know magnetometers can only be used to detect underwater targets at very short ranges. I highly doubt that they're used on military reconnaissance satellites. | | | |
| ▲ | post-it 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those suffer from the same problem. There's a lot of ocean, and if you don't know where to look then you won't find what you're looking for. | | |
| ▲ | Sanzig 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Eh, not really. Synthetic Aperture Radar satellites used for marine ship detection have extremely wide sensor swath widths, and ships show up as very bright radar targets against the ocean. Detecting a large ship, even in a very large search area, is almost trivial. Identifying a ship is harder, but not insurmountable. In particular, large ships like aircraft carriers tend to have very identifiable radar signatures if your resolution is high enough. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway894345 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | How do these work? I would think radar would have a very difficult time seeing a ship against the backdrop of the ocean from so high above. Is the satellite bouncing radar waves off the side of the ship as the satellite is near the horizon? Even if you can detect a ship, I'm having a hard time imagining a sufficiently high radar resolution for such a wide sensor swath width at such an extreme range. Is the idea that you locate it with the wide sensor swath and then get a detailed radar signature from a more precise sensor? | | |
| ▲ | OneDeuxTriSeiGo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Even with an extremely low resolution radar hit they are very identifiable. Most naval vessels move in groups/squadrons. Carriers basically always travel with a "carrier strike group"/CSG of a dozen other ships and destroyers often travel in "destroyer squadrons"/DESRONs. So any time you see a cluster of hits, just by the relative responses of each hit you can narrow down and guess the entire CSG/DESRON in one go and then work out which responses map to which ship in the CSG/DESRON once you have a good idea of which group you are looking at. This is especially true because ships even within the same class have varying ages, different block numbers, and differing retrofits. So each one has a unique signature to it. But also if you aren't completely certain you can always come back with a second high resolution pass and then it's trivial to identify each ship just visually. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Granted, but how does satellite radar actually see ships at all? How do the ships not blend into the ocean (the relative difference between the distances between ship<->satellite and ocean<->satellite is minescule)? EDIT: the sibling comment already provided a high quality answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47458766 |
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| ▲ | jasonwatkinspdx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I would think Just do a youtube search and you'll find plenty of talking head explainer videos. Ignore the talking head and just look at the imagery and data they share. | |
| ▲ | Sanzig 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | SAR operates in side-looking slant geometry. Consider shooting a ray at the ocean at an oblique angle from a satellite: it bounces off and scatters away from you. Hardly any of the energy scatters back towards you. Now, put a ship there. The ray bounces off the surface of the ocean and scatters up into the side of the ship, and from geometry, it's going to bounce off the ship and come straight back towards its original source. You get tons of energy coming back at you. A ship on the ocean is basically a dihedral corner reflector, which is a very good target for a radar. > I'm having a hard time imagining a sufficiently high radar resolution for such a wide sensor swath width at such an extreme range. Is the idea that you locate it with the wide sensor swath and then get a detailed radar signature from a more precise sensor? That's one approach, there are so-called "tip and cue" concepts that do exactly this: a lead satellite will operate in a wide swath mode to detect targets, and then feed them back to a chase satellite which is operating in a high resolution spotlight mode to collect detailed radar images of the target for classification and identification. However, aircraft carriers are big, so I don't think you'd even need to do the followup spotlight mode for identification. As an example, RADARSAT-2 does 35 meter resolution at a 450 km swath for its ship detection mode. That's plenty to be able to detect and identify an aircraft carrier, and that's a 20 year old civilian mission with public documentation, not a cutting edge military surveillance system. There are concepts for multi-aperture systems that can hit resolutions of less than ten meters at 500 km swath width using digital beamforming, like Germany's HRWS concept. tl;dr: Radar works very well for this. | | |
| ▲ | mrguyorama an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >A ship on the ocean is basically a dihedral corner reflector, which is a very good target for a radar. This is why the Zumwalt and other low observable designs are going back to roughly tumblehome hulls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#/media... If only it could actually do anything. I genuinely don't understand how we refused to retrofit any weapon system to the gun mounts. We have 5inch guns. They aren't the magic cannon it was designed for but do they really not fit? Apparently we are now putting hypersonic missiles in those mounts instead. Can't exactly make a Carrier that shape though. | | |
| ▲ | jasonwatkinspdx an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | A Zumwalt with 5 inch gun offers almost no mission capability above a simple coast guard cutter. They're putting hypersonics on it because they've got 3 hulls and might as well get some value out of them, but not because it's what you'd design for from scratch. The Zumwalt program was dumb from day 1. It was driven by elderly people on the congressional arms committees that have romantic notions of battleships blasting it out. The reality is since the development of anti ship missiles, sitting off the coast and plinking at someone is suicidal, even if you have stealth shaping and uber guns of some sort. It was a DoA mission concept. | |
| ▲ | greedo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Zumwalt class are being refitted to carry CSP. And the boutique gun system is really a complex thing, it's not like packing in a bunch of VLS containers. |
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| ▲ | throwaway894345 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is cool. Thanks for the detailed follow up! | |
| ▲ | Gitechnolo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >if you don't know where to look I mean fuck, I can pretty easily find the strait of hormuz on the map, pretty sure intelligence agencies can too and just look there for the carrier. If I can't find the carrier there, then I can plot the course between France and hormuz and do a brute force search over that course taking into account such a ship's relative velocity, since it's not like the carrier is gonna zig-zag through south america and the north pole on its way there to avoid detection. Is what I'm saying something sci-fi? | | |
| ▲ | gherkinnn 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is dangerous to believe a problem goes only as deep as one's understanding of it. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am always open to corrections from specialists in the field or just any average joes with a different opinion. That's why I keep coming here. | | |
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| ▲ | blitzar 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I can pretty easily find the strait of hormuz on the map, pretty sure intelligence agencies can too Seems to have come as a shock to the US government. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This. You can search for years for a ship and never find it. |
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| ▲ | garyfirestorm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We couldn’t find a commercial jet (MH370). Both, while it was still flying in the air and after it was presumably lost in the ocean.
They couldn’t track it in the air nor can they still find its remains after looking for it for so long. This problem is not trivial. |
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| ▲ | seizethecheese 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A commercial jet is both way smaller and faster moving than an aircraft carrier. I suspect this is like saying: why can’t you see the fly in the photo, the turtle is right there! | | |
| ▲ | simlevesque 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It can also go over any part of the globe. The aircraft carrier is limited to non-shallow water. | | |
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| ▲ | baq 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's a nonzero chance military intelligence agencies of multiple countries know exactly where that plane fell, but none can say anything, because that would reveal the true extent of their capabilities. | | |
| ▲ | abcd_f 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just like it was with that amateur sub that imploded. It later surfaced the Navy heard the implosion and knew what it was. | | | |
| ▲ | IncreasePosts 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They could just feed the data to some associated outside party with some other plausible explanation. But, there are only a few, maybe two countries, with the ability and desire to have listening stations all over the ocean, and neither one is particularly interested in the Indian ocean. |
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| ▲ | loeg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The Indian Ocean is both larger and has significantly less traffic than the Mediterranean. And a 777 is about 16x faster than a carrier. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > And a 777 is about 16x faster than a carrier. Surely that's missing a 0 or are carriers really that fast? | | |
| ▲ | marricks 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Aircraft carrier speed... 33 knots or about 35mph[1] Boeing 777 speed 554mph[2] So about 16x! [1] http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-028.php [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777 | | |
| ▲ | ray__ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Honestly pretty crazy, although that must be the max speed. The carrier was going about 10 mph in this case (per Strava). | | |
| ▲ | jmalicki 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | They don't normally go that fast from what I understand. That is their top speed in reserve they can use for evasive maneuvers, they don't want to go faster than their support fleet or deal with the high maintenance running at threshold will cause. It's like when you drive your car you're not normally redlining it since that will kill the engine if you do it all the time. |
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| ▲ | jmalicki 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Commercial airliners are sub mach1. The Charles de Gaulle is reported to go at least 27 knots at top speed. 27*16=432, a 777 goes 510-520 knots. So maybe more like 18-19x. For the carriers it is at least as the true top speed is classified. | | |
| ▲ | loeg an hour ago | parent [-] | | 16x, 20x -- it's about the right order of magnitude. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | kergonath an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surprisingly, it is much easier to find a big chunk of steel floating on the Mediterranean, knowing where it was a couple of days ago, than a smaller object disintegrated in small pieces under the Indian Ocean. Go figure. | |
| ▲ | literalAardvark 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | MH370 crashed in the Pacific. Look at the globe some day from that angle and compare it to the Mediterranean. | | |
| ▲ | contingencies 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Err, no. The consensus and available evidence including washed up components seems to be that it crashed in the Indian Ocean, that's the (also vast) space between ~Australia and ~Africa, bounded in the north by Indonesia, the Indian subcontinent, and Arabia. It crashed somewhere in the eastern portion, not far from Indonesia and Australia. Currents then took parts as far as the Maldives/Sri Lanka, IIRC. The Pacific is the other (eastern) side of Australia, which stretches from the Aussie-Kiwi approach to the South Pole to Alaska, and Vladivostok to Tierra del Fuego. | | |
| ▲ | kergonath an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Currents then took parts as far as the Maldives/Sri Lanka, IIRC Some bits ended up on a beach of the Réunion island, closer to Madagascar than Sri Lanka. I am not disagreeing, it’s just that the whole story is fascinating. It’s easy to think "well, it just crashed into the sea so of course some bits would show up on a beach" until you look at the Indian Ocean with a proper projection and figure the scale. | | |
| ▲ | contingencies an hour ago | parent [-] | | Floating is a powerful physical configuration! You get currents plus windspeed. If you're in to this sort of thing, I can recommend The Seacraft of Prehistory, We: The Navigators, and Archaeology of the Boat approximately in that order. |
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| ▲ | stavros 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you making the same point as the person you said "err, no" to, or are you correcting the inconsequential details while not addressing their main point? | | |
| ▲ | loeg 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No. literalAardvark's main statement, "[It] crashed in the Pacific," was incorrect. contingencies's comment corrected that. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | epsteingpt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Different times. Now there are thousands of LEO satellites. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nobody was looking for MH370 while it was in the air. After a few hours, it rapidly became a submarine, which is a type of craft that's well known for being hard to find. In addition to that, it took on its new submersible form in one of the most remote areas of the ocean, rather than in a small and very busy sea. |
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| ▲ | fiftyacorn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah id be more impressed if he found a submarine using strava |
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| ▲ | kelnos an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sure, but there's a big difference between using nation-state resources like spy satellites, and using a public API exposed by a fitness app. Not everyone can use spy satellites, and even if we're only talking about nation-states, many (most?) countries do not have spy satellites. |
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| ▲ | thisisnotmyname 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn’t the point that if you can identify one naval vessel by this means you can probably identify many? |
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| ▲ | rtkwe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If they have ships in the area sure but picking it out of the ocean if you don't already know where it is on satellite data is a lot harder. Until the last decade or so satellite tracking of ships visually was essentially the domain of huge defense budgets like the US that had more continuous satellite coverage. It'd be interesting to see how well that could be done now with something like Planet and tracking it forwards in time from port visits or other known publicized pinpointing. |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > seriously doubt there is a country on earth which lacks the capability to detect an aircraft carrier They probably lack the ability to figure out which specialists are on board. |
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| ▲ | echoangle 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe stupid question but how would Iran do it? They don’t have any ships in the area and also don’t have any satellites that could take pictures, right? Or does getting told by Russia count? |
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| ▲ | snickerbockers 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | America has intelligence-sharing agreements with allied nations wherein our satellites are taking photos on the allies' behalf of things that we might not otherwise be interested in. I'm sure China and Russia have similar arrangements with their allies. | | |
| ▲ | guerrilla 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Iran does with Russia. It's been in the news a lot lately. I have no doubt they do with China as well. | | |
| ▲ | mrguyorama an hour ago | parent [-] | | China is absolutely sharing intel with Iran. They cannot believe their luck. The US is getting itself into a Ukraine, draining all their advanced weapon stocks, delivering tons of real war data for China to work with. It's like Christmas. Real practice tracking US assets and wargaming against them is such a break for them. |
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| ▲ | rtkwe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I bet you could do it with a big enough expense account with Planet Labs and the compute power to process the images these days. Track it forwards from the last public port of call or *INT leak like this strava data. 3.7m accuracy seems like enough to do it. It's not enough to target it directly but it would be enough to get more capable assets into the right area a la the interception of Japan's ships when they attacked Midway. | | |
| ▲ | bpodgursky 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Iran, like most countries, does not a blue water navy with assets in the Mediterranean sea to perform realtime surveillance. | | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | They had a handful of frigates mostly but those could go out as far as the Med pretty easily. One of their ships was sunk near Sri Lanka. | | |
| ▲ | signatoremo 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It was sunk there because it attended an on-off event in India before that. Iran's ships don't get on regular trips far from home. | | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They don't but it shows they could. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean, a personal yacht can sail around the world, that's not really demonstrating whether the vessel is useful in combat operations anywhere in the world. |
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| ▲ | elif 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Look at marinetraffic.com and then try to map a course across the Mediterranean that won't be seen by dozens of ships. It's impossible. | |
| ▲ | ronnier 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Russia and China help them. | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, Russia helps Iran target our troops and (likely) sailors. But don't you dare suggest that hanging a portrait of Putin in the White House is inappropriate, or a Republican might get mad. | | |
| ▲ | drysine 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | >Yes, Russia helps Iran target our troops and (likely) sailors. You surely know that the US helps Ukrainian target Russian troops and refineries deep in Russia? | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I certainly hope so, but we've pretty much hung Ukraine out to dry under Trump [1], just like we did the Iranian protesters. Unlike Russia, Ukraine evidently doesn't have any kompromat on Trump or the Republican Party in general. 1: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/us-military-aid-ukraine-... | | |
| ▲ | Joker_vD 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I certainly hope so Then you probably should accept that proxy wars work both ways. And well, it's not really Iran's fault that its borders has crept so close to the US military bases. | | |
| ▲ | CamperBob2 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Who is Iran a proxy for? Russia, as usual, has only benefited from Trump's actions. The one thing you can say about Iran is that they were absolute morons not to actually build or otherwise acquire a nuclear arsenal. They had decades. If Pakistan could do it... |
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| ▲ | 2OEH8eoCRo0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why make it easier for them? I think people tend to lack imagination about how some piece of intel could be used by an adversary. |
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| ▲ | 1970-01-01 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If Charles de Gaulle turns off AIS, how does North Korea find it? |
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| ▲ | drysine 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malligyong-1 | | |
| ▲ | rtkwe 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's in a sun synchronous orbit so would only over fly once a day so the task does get a lot tougher. A few days of bad weather and you've largely lost the ship. |
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| ▲ | vntok 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Track not the ship itself but the planes that take off and land on it. Many sites will expose their paths, you'll see the planes circling in a pattern around "some void" - that's the ship. | | |
| ▲ | 1970-01-01 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Many sites? Can you show me any De Gaulle aircraft currently in-flight? | | |
| ▲ | vntok 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can find yesterday's location easily on flightradar24.com. Try it it will make you feel like an ossint sleuth or something. Look to the south of Cyprus. Now that's not realtime because I'm telling you after the fact. But if you were paid to do it, of course, then you'd spend some money on an actual account on this and similar services, which would get you many more filters and much more precise data. |
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| ▲ | cwillu 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If de Gaulle is turning off AIS, it stands to reason that it's also turning off the transponders in the air wing. | | |
| ▲ | crote 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The US tried this with their Venezuela raid. It resulted in a tanker almost hitting a passenger plane twice in two days. [0] Turning off AIS while allowing civilian traffic is incredibly risky, and creating a huge no-fly zone in the Med is politically tricky. [0]: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/12/16/americas/venezuela-near-c... | |
| ▲ | vntok 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not at all, depends on the mission. In fact you can spot yesterday's location of the ship right now on flightradar. It was patrolling ~100km below Cyprus's main southern city. Move the timeline to yesterday, find a non-Boeing military plane in that zone, enable flight traces and keep trying planes until you see an ovoidal pattern circling around "nothing"... but that nothingness moves over time.m; that's the ship. | | | |
| ▲ | kjkjadksj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe, maybe not. When the US did their venezuela maduro operation they turned on adsb on f15e for whatever reason. And only turned it on for like a portion of the mission so maybe that wasn’t intentional. |
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| ▲ | Barrin92 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| That's not really the point. The issue is that a soldier almost certainly without a lot of thought ended up leaking information that he wasn't aware of leaking. And furthermore identifiable information of a particular individual, which people can use to for example find out what unit he is deployed with, which may give you information about what the mission is about and so on. In WW2 when transmitting morse code individual operators used to have what was called a 'fist', skilled listeners could identify and track operators by their unique signature. This was used during world war 2 to track where particular individuals and units were moved which gave people a great deal of information not just where but what they were up to. If you leak the Fitbit information of a guy who foreign intelligence has identified as being part of a unit that's always involved in particular operations you didn't just give something obvious away but potentially something very sensitive. |