| ▲ | bovermyer 7 hours ago |
| He had some pretty awful views that he was pretty loud about, especially later in life. He also cheated on his wife at one point. However, so as not to speak (purely) ill of the dead, I will say that he was an accomplished martial artist with a prolific film career. |
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| ▲ | lich_king 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > He had some pretty awful views that he was pretty loud about, especially later in life. He also cheated on his wife at one point. In 1961, in his early 20s. You get ~80 years on this planet to make mistakes and have views that some other people will dislike. If these are the worst things we can accuse him of, while acknowledging all his charitable work, I'd say he fared OK compared to many other role models we have. |
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| ▲ | sys32768 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be fair, you probably have some views some people think are pretty awful. |
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| ▲ | kelnos 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is a tough thing. I do believe in moral relativism to a large extent, but I also think there are some things that are really just objectively morally and ethically "right" or "wrong". Hating on LGBT folks and trying to restrict their rights is one of those things that is wrong no matter how you dice it. People who believe otherwise are wrong, full stop. So it's not really so much about people thinking someone else's views are awful. It's about whether or not those views truly are awful. And I feel very safe in saying that if someone thinks my support of LGBT folks is pretty awful, they're in the wrong, not me. And I'm in the right to think their hateful views are awful. (Yes, I realize how arrogant that sounds, but I have to stand by it.) I think this is something that transcends politics or culture wars or anything like that. Having these sorts of hateful views are actively harmful to humanity's and society's future. That doesn't mean I think we should censor people (rampant censorship is also actively harmful to our future), but it does mean we need to somehow fix people and shift the culture toward one that lets people live how they want in cases like this where doing so doesn't actually hurt anyone else. I have no idea how to accomplish this, though. | |
| ▲ | bovermyer 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oh, for sure. MAGA types think some of my views are absolutely abhorrent. I'm pretty sure there are a few cultures that would kill me for my views. Just because they hate me, though, doesn't mean I can't disagree with their position. | |
| ▲ | praptak 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't see how this matters. Whoever thinks I'm horrible is 100% allowed to say this after I'm dead. | | |
| ▲ | claytongulick 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Or, another option is that we could all give grace to others, even (especially) if they disagree with us. | | |
| ▲ | kelnos 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm fine with people disagreeing with me. I'm not fine when that disagreement results in campaigning for legally restricting the rights of others. There's a huge difference. If every racist, homophobe, and transphobe (and others) would stop trying to enshrine their views into law, I'd have much less of a problem with them. I wouldn't want to hang out with them, but I could safely ignore and not care one bit about their views. | |
| ▲ | ericwood 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's disagreement then there's being an outspoken supporter of systematically trying to strip rights away from others because of your religious beliefs. It's much deeper than having differing views on fiscal policy. | |
| ▲ | ericjmorey 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Who are you granting grace to? Who are you denying it to? We know the answers to these questions for Norris. | |
| ▲ | ahhhhnoooo 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Disagree? I think it's safe to say that someone who campaigned to ban same sex marriage is more than just disagreeing. He's trying to ruin millions of lives. He was an Obama birther conspiracist. He thought gays shouldn't be allowed to join Boy Scouts. He was a big supporter of Netanyahu. This aren't things that are even remotely in the same ballpark as disagreement. If someone is using their celebrity status to cause harm to millions or tens of millions, I think we can say a few unkind words about them when they go. | |
| ▲ | miltonlost 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't give grace to racists who spout birther conspiracy theories. Don't give grace to homophobes. |
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| ▲ | bbkane 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Me 5 years ago did. I agree with all my views today. Who knows about me 5 years from now | |
| ▲ | LightBug1 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a solid difference between 'awful' and just plain 'dumb'. |
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| ▲ | moscoe 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If I can quote Chael Sonnen, I’d like to say ”you absolutely suck!” |
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| ▲ | RIMR 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "Don't speak ill of the dead"? How about "Don't be a bad person when you're alive"? |
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| ▲ | bovermyer 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Something I was brought up to believe was that you shouldn't speak ill of the recently deceased. A courtesy to those in mourning. I struggle with that rule sometimes. | |
| ▲ | claytongulick 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Great advice. Do you follow it? Is there one way to be a good person? Does being a good person also mean agreeing with your politics? | | |
| ▲ | kelnos 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Does being a good person also mean agreeing with your politics? Can we stop framing human rights as "politics"? People hating on others because they don't like that they're gay or trans or black or brown... that's just people being fundamentally awful people, and has nothing to do with politics. The fact that they are then taking their awfulness and engaging politically to enshrine their awful views into law just adds another dimension to it. I said this in another comment: if these people with awful views would stop trying to make those awful views laws, then I'd have much less of a problem with them; I could at least just ignore them. > Is there one way to be a good person? What a useless, one-dimensional take on the problem. | |
| ▲ | ahhhhnoooo 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are good people whose politics I disagree with. If you are using your celebrity status to cause harm to millions on the international stage, systematically attempting to strip their rights, I think it's fair to say they weren't a good person. |
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