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mark-r 3 hours ago

I've never understood one vital thing - if PFAS is by nature totally inert and unreactive, how is it harmful? If you drank a glass of the stuff, what would happen?

shortercode 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As I understand it they discovered a long chain molecule which was highly inert and wouldn’t stick to anything. Which was a useful feature but you know makes it hard to attach to anything. So they created a similar smaller chain molecule which had a reactive tip but was still super stable. Unfortunately it’s also a bit amino acid like. So we ended up with a molecule which is very durable and accumulates in living things.

Then of course we produced it at industrial scale for decades flooding the entire planet with this stuff.

n_e 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

PFAS are many different molecules.

For example PTFE is a large molecule with strong bonds, and as a consequence isn't very reactive and likely safe.

On the other hand, perfluoroalkyls such as PFOA have the same shape as fatty acids, so they bind to the same places such as in the liver, which makes them grave health hazards.

Many precursors used for making PFAS are also toxic, so for example, even if PTFE is safe, manufacturing it isn't.

VladVladikoff 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not biologically inert. And they bioaccumulate in humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PFAS&section=10

mark-r 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The bioaccumulate part I understand, for the body to eliminate something it has to bind to it somehow. Tough to do if the chemical won't react with anything.

I'm not sure what "biologically inert" means specifically. Are you saying there are biological chemicals that actually do interact with this stuff? A single example would help me understand.

fabian2k 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't know the details here for PFAS (and they likely would vary enormously for the different molecules that fall into this broad category). But in general a molecule doesn't have to react to be accumulated. Inert usually means it doesn't react with other substances in a normal environment. It doesn't mean you can't make it react if you add enough energy. For example nitrogen gas is considered inert. Bacteria (or chemical plants) can make it react and produce different nitrogen-containing molecules from it.

Inert doesn't really say anything about toxicity, it's not directly related to that. The opposite is though, pretty much any strongly reactive chemical is dangerous or toxic in some way since it will react with stuff humans are made from.

With PFAS the inert example is also usually Teflon. That is also a solid polymer, so not many individual molecules. There isn't much you body could do to process a macroscopic chunk of Teflon, so you'd almost certainly just excrete it.

fabian2k 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As far as I understand the nomenclature, PFAS covers both the inert final products like Teflon and reactive intermediates, degradation products and reactants. It's a very broad category of chemicals.

My understanding is that the bigger danger is e.g. a Teflon-producing plant than the final Teflon products (assuming the Teflon isn't damaged and heated too much). Because the plant has to handle the reactive ingredients, and those can leak into the environment.

e-dant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think, if I’m reading correctly, that PFAS are the thing that PFXX stuff gradually breaks down into? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12028640/

Edit: Nevermind, Wikipedia makes it pretty clear that even the non-broken-down PFAS are totally unsafe, evil things which we knew were dangerous since the 70s and did nothing about until recently

kees99 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fluoroalkyl chemicals are only "inert and unreactive" in a relatively narrow sense of "wouldn't catch fire", "don't react with strong acids and bases", and similar.

They are plenty reactive in a sense of interacting with enzymes and other cellular machinery.

hcknwscommenter 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really accurate. These chemicals are quite unreactive. Precursors from manufacturing waste can be very reactive, but most of the problematic contamination regards the forever chemicals themselves, not precursors. This paper is probably the best scientific review of what is going on in the human body. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03043...

Maybe sci-hub has a copy of the full paper. Not sure.

As briefly as possible, and therefore glossing over many many details, the toxic effects are mainly due to cell membrane perturbation, cell membrane transport disruption, and binding to hydrophobic protein cavities (thus disrupting the usual function of these cavities).

3 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
piva00 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

PFAS used to be considered totally inert but later research showed correlations between bad health effects and higher concentrations of PFOA and PFOS.

3M and DuPont knew since the 1970s and suppressed the information, not dissimilar to how tobacco and oil industries created disinformation about externalities.

hvb2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If anyone wants to read up on this. One case is Dordrecht in the Netherlands, former Dupont now called Chemours. Not a pretty story....

franktankbank 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Making PFAS and having to dispose of byproducts is the nasty part as far as I understand. There is also some kind of reaction that can happen where it will off gas nasty enough stuff to kill your pet bird if you overheat your pan.