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| ▲ | jorl17 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Note that, while it is a rewrite, it was done so through disassembling the original game, not via a clean room implementation. I find this particularly relevant given that the original was written (mostly) in assembly too. |
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| ▲ | Closi 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Also even if it is a ground up rewrite, the look and feel still matters. Try creating a 1:1 dupe of a Hermes bag or a Rolex and see how their legal team reacts (even if you call it an OpenBirk) | | |
| ▲ | 20k an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Clean room reimplementations of software projects have been tested in court and are legally fine | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | anthk 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | - OpenArena - Chip's Challange and custom levels pack - Freedoom+Blasmepher for Doom/Heretic - LibreQuake - Supertux2 - Oolite - Kgoldminner/XScavenger with level sets - Frozen Bubble - Any X11/console/9front sokoban clone. Everyone reuses the same level set over and over. | |
| ▲ | anthk 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | dang 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Please don't cross into personal attack on HN. You can make your substantive points without that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html | |
| ▲ | bjt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The fact that these exist does not mean that they're immune from legal challenge. If the original creators wanted to sue, there are all kinds of claims that would have a decent shot in court (e.g. trademark, trade dress, design patents) besides "you copied our copyrighted source code." The clones exist more because people are being cool about it, and because there's not a strong economic incentive to challenge them. Those things can change at any time. | | |
| ▲ | anthk 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sony vs Bleem. They already lost this case in court. | | |
| ▲ | comex an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That was a very different case. Out of the two claims, the only one that made it to appeals court was about whether it was fair use for Bleem to use screenshots of PS1 games to advertise its emulator (which was compatible with those games). The Ninth Circuit decided it was. But that's not relevant here. The other claim was more relevant, as it was an unfair competition claim that apparently had something to do with Bleem's reimplementation of the PS1 BIOS. But the district court's record of the case doesn't seem to be available online, and the information I was able to find online was vague, so I don't know what exactly the facts or legal arguments were on that claim. Without an appeal it also doesn't set precedent. If there were a lawsuit over OpenTTD, it would probably be for copyright infringement rather than unfair competition, and it would probably focus more on fair use and copyrightability. For fair use, it matters how much something is functional versus creative. The PS1 BIOS is relatively functional, but a game design and implementation are highly creative. On the other hand, despite being creative, game mechanics by themselves are not copyrightable. So it might come down to the extent to which OpenTTD's code was based on the reverse-engineered original code, as opposed to being a truly from-scratch reimplementation of the same mechanics. Visual appearance would also be relevant. Oracle v. Google would be an important precedent. | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think I'm even older than you, because I remember what Nintendo did to the Great Giana Sisters. | |
| ▲ | haunter 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Good luck making an open source Pokemon game clone and see how it goes |
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| ▲ | Ekaros 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It might be improved and changed in many ways. But I have zero doubt it would not lose in court any argument over copyrights. Most reasonable people would tell that it looks way too close to original. And that would probably be enough. |
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| ▲ | Macha 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There's two issues: 1. OpenTTD is not a clean room rewrite. It started by disassembling the original game and manually converting to C++ on a piecemeal basis. 2. As the game was updated, sure lots of this code has been rewritten. Almost certainly the majority. But has all of it been legally rewritten? Ehh... much less clear. This sort of process has generally been held to produce a derived work of whatever you're cloning, even if the final result no longer contains original code, hence why clean room reverse engineering even became a thing in the first place. It's probably fuzzy enough at this stage that you could have a long expensive drawn out legal battle about it (and I suspect we'll see at least one for some other project in the coming years with the recent trend of "I had AI rewrite this GPL project to my MIT licensed clone"). Would OpenTTD win? Who knows. Could OpenTTD afford it? Certainly not. |
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| ▲ | mghackerlady 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't BSD in a similar legal limbo for a while? In that case wouldn't there be precedent for such projects to be legally fine so long as they've existed long enough and been heavily modified? |
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| ▲ | not_the_fda 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Its not a clean ground-up rewrite. They dis-assembled the original binaries into assembly and started from there. |
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| ▲ | sylos 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I read somewhere that it's not a clean room rewrite but rather it started off as a reverse engineering. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | designerarvid 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Reproducing someone’s intellectual property and publishing it is exactly what constitutes a copyright violation. You can retype someone’s book with your keyboard, it’s still not yours. |
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| ▲ | Sharlin 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Reproducing the surface behavior of a program, no matter how faithfully, is not in itself copyright violation if it's a cleanroom implementation. But int this case it's not to write the new one, the developers studied (and manually translated to C++) the original code, not just the program's behavior. So this is more of a case of a derived work, like a translation of a novel. | |
| ▲ | anthk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Learn something new, dear GenZers: https://osgameclones.com/ Maybe you all realize how much brainwashed from corporations yall actually are. | | |
| ▲ | designerarvid an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | GenZ? | |
| ▲ | iso1631 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Look and Feel in computers and how it interacts with copyright is hardly something new https://jolt.law.harvard.edu/assets/articlePDFs/v03/03HarvJL... | | |
| ▲ | anthk 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | And Sony vs Bleem (or the IBM BIOS reimplementation) already set a precedent so that doesn't really matter anymore. Look at Wine. Or Exegutor. Or DOSBox. All of them totally legal reimplementing either prior look and feel and functionality. | | |
| ▲ | iso1631 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The code of computer programs are excluded from design protection, but visual aspects of software are very commonly protectable as long as they are ‘new’ (i.e. not a direct copy of anything that has come before) and possess ‘individual character’ (i.e. that the design produces a different ‘overall impression’ than anything that has come before) I'm no expect, but Chris Sawyer style games certainly provided a unique overall impression to me. Whether it needs to be a registered design or not I couldn't say, but it's not going to be cheap to find out. More recent battles have relied on Trademark and Patent law rather than Copyright, but "Look and Feel" is still a legal grey area |
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| ▲ | orphea 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Reproducing is absolutely not a copyright violation. Otherwise emulators would have no legal option to exist. | | |
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| ▲ | iso1631 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If I were to create a new game from the ground up, with new artistic assets, and not an LLM in sight, with the characters of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader playing around on the Millenium Falcon, I would be breaching copyright. I'm not sure if look and feel of a game like Transport Tycoon can be copyrighted, but I wouldn't like to be against it. (I remember buying Transport Tycoon from I think Beatles, in Altrincham. I clearly remember riding on the front seat of the bus upstairs on my way to Flixton back in 1994 reading the manual) |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | ikiris 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It seems you don't understand copyright. The entire game is copyrighted. Not just the specific sprites. You can see the same effect if someone were to make a yellow short guy with metal claws and regeneration as a character. |
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| ▲ | hrmtst93837 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | hrmtst93837 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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