of course it does.

Why do you think google buys the rights to firefox's search bar (as a default setting)?

Angostura an hour ago | parent | next [-]

And by extension, all users of FOSS must be the product, right?

	▲	fivetomidnight 20 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I see it more like a question than a rule. "The service is free. Am I the product?" That is a valid thing to ask. Even with FOSS sometimes. Some FOSS projects are backed by companies, then yes, plausible to ask. Otherwise, I would answer with a clear no. (Projects can still collect telemetry and other data and sell that, though the sell part should be very rare, imo...) Edit: Was that a bad faith argument or a honest question? Sometimes I can't tell, maybe because of old or ESL...
	▲	chii 18 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		> all users of FOSS must be the product, right? i would default to this being the truth, until demonstrated otherwise. Call it cynical, but it's the cynical that survive.

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hvb2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's not remotely the same? A default setting that can easily be changed for a feature the vendor didn't have a solution for?

To give you an example. Try to use Google Search without sending your data to Google. You cannot use the product without it, you cannot opt out. Firefox, you can use just fine with Google not being your search engine.

	▲	chii 4 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Why isn't it the same? The fact that it is possible to change that default means google simply pays less for it than they otherwise would if it wasn't changeable. It's not a binary toggle - firefox is selling you as a source of revenue for themselves. They're just not making it as extreme as it is possible to be - in the hopes that you don't switch away. You can compare same situation with safari in iOS. Except google pays a lot more, since you cannot switch away in iOS as easily, and culturally there's more reluctance compared to firefox users. This makes google pay more for iOS traffic, as those users are worth more.
	▲	Incipient 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		It isn't the same, but it's comparable. Google is paying Mozilla to be the default search engine. Google is only paying Mozilla because Firefox has users, regardless if they use the default search engine or not. So, indirectly everyone is the 'product'. I'm sure if 95% of people did swap to ddg, then google may change their mind. Also I believe there is the possibility Google also pays Mozilla to offer competition so Chrome isn't considered a monopoly (but maybe Edge has changed that to some extent?)

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echoangle 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Don’t they buy the search bar to have another competitor and not get forced to give away chrome for antitrust reasons? I don’t think they care about the search bar THAT much, it’s basically a donation right?

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chii 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> for antitrust reasons?

well, a benefit is a benefit. It doesn't really matter how it manifests does it? It's not a donation, as it is not altruistic.

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echoangle 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But then I’m not the product? The government is basically forcing google to pay my browser developer, how does that make me the product it is bad for me?

	▲	chii 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		You are still "the product" even if google derives secondary benefits - because you are using firefox. Google doesn't pay the other forks of firefox money (at least, as far as i know). It's because you aren't using those browsers (you as in the royal you). I didn't say you being a product is bad - but it does not align customer with software company. You may be OK with being sold as a product to google, as this relationship currently isn't damaging. But what if a future offer which would damage you is taken by mozilla because it's profitable?