| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 3 hours ago |
| I'm confused by this objection, if you draw a stereotypical supply and demand curve, you can see how prices settle to an equilibrium point. Of course reality has more complications, but I think your objection is 95% answered by a supply and demand curve. You keep building houses when it is profitable. You stop when it is not. This naturally keeps everything in balance. |
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| ▲ | michaelmrose 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| If a minority has most of the wealth then the equilibrium supply may include a lot of supply of second homes, very large homes on large plots for the rich, properties sold at a premium based on how much they can extract from renters, and even investment properties occupied by nobody whilst still having insufficient small basic homes and dense housing. Capital that could be invested in better serving the bottom half has to compete not only with the use of those resources to further enrich the rich but other investment opportunities. |
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| ▲ | idiotsecant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What do you do when that equilibrium point is hopelessly above what the average person can afford? |
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| ▲ | mchusma 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Not sure I buy the premise. Austin has a household $133k median income with a $435k median home price. It’s very affordable. But, to make Austin more affordable still, you make it less expensive to build so that it’s profitable to build. Typical regulations that do this are:
- Lower minimum sizing requirements
- open zoning
- raise height limits
- make sure you don’t have unwarranted restricted fire codes (some places have elevator stairwell requirements that are insane)
- make permitting easier or not required at all for some cases
- no min parking requirements Pretty sure as good as Austin is, they could easily reduce the costs by up to 30% (there are parts of the country with 50% the cost per sq ft for new construction). | |
| ▲ | tirant 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That means there’s an invisible hand keeping prices up, or basically that the market is not free enough. That’s caused most of the time due to excessive regulation. Another reason is high demand in locations where offer is limited due to physical limitations. There’s always demand to live in Broadway, and offer can never catch up due to its physical limitations. | | |
| ▲ | laserlight an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > That means there’s an invisible hand keeping prices up, or basically that the market is not free enough. Nowhere in the economic theory there is a proposition stating that prices should fall below affordable levels, given enough competition. | | |
| ▲ | Sankozi 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | We are not talking about economic theory. We are talking about house prices. Time after time it has been seen that free-enough market can lower the prices to affordable levels. | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | We don't need economic theory for that it's just common sense. Humanity has been erecting structures to live in for approximately our entire existence. The modern economy is mechanized. How could a wood frame structure or a small high rise possibly be unaffordable if the market is functional? Stop and think for a second. Someone in good health with a willingness to DIY and a sufficiently flexible schedule can literally build their own house from the ground up. It's a substantial time investment but not actually as much as you might think. Housing isn't very resource intensive compared to the rest of the modern economy. The only possibilities I can imagine to explain unaffordable housing are broken regulations, critical levels of resource exhaustion, natural or man made disaster, and gross economic dysfunction. | | |
| ▲ | foxglacier 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It's regulations. But before you call them broken, some of it is safety. Safety standards keep rising with technology and the economy as people can afford more. Same with cars. There's also zoning restrictions in some places designed to prevent slums by requiring large residences. I guess that's happening here too. | |
| ▲ | michaelmrose 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | The average person would need a MASSIVE investment in time to learn all the skills required in addition to investment in tools. Furthermore people won't lend joe random the funds required in the same fashion as they would for an actual finished house OR constructing a house via a contractor. |
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| ▲ | lumost 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The invisible Hand may be monetary policy. The median household may simply no longer be able to afford the median home due to the continued wealth distribution shift brought on by interest rate targeting. | |
| ▲ | KellyCriterion 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is theoretical MBA101 speech: In reality, those ideas do not apply to the housing market, esp. as there is no real competition; and because the demand is absolutely inelastic (if we are already applying in MBA-wording universe) Also, that this is true you can see if you compare to housing markets which "are more free than the Australian" | | |
| ▲ | Sankozi 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course demand is elastic. Do you think, people will migrate to a city with an unaffordable housing (unaffordable for them)? Unless you are living in North Korea, the competition is also there. | |
| ▲ | jjmarr an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The regulation is single family zoning. Zoning makes it impossible to stack high rise apartment buildings in the areas that people want to live in. |
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| ▲ | Sl1mb0 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The good ol' invisible hand; Literally an appeal to ignorance. "What else could it be?" | |
| ▲ | locknitpicker 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > That means there’s an invisible hand keeping prices up, or basically that the market is not free enough. That’s caused most of the time due to excessive regulation. No. Why do you guys fall so easily for the "regulation" cliche? The answer is far easier: unwillingness to invest. Why are there investment funds willing to burn through tens of millions in stupid stuff like NFTs or pets.com, but investing $10m on a 5 story apartment building that can get you a solid RoI of 20% is frowned upon? | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The invisible hand is zoning. There's plenty of investment available but you literally aren't allowed to build what would be useful in most cases. Sure you're free to go out into the middle of nowhere and build all sorts of wild stuff but there's no market for that because that isn't actually what anyone wants. You can't blame the investors when what people actually want to pay for has effectively been outlawed. | |
| ▲ | otherme123 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why the investment funds have to build the houses? Houses has been built/funded from zero by the future owners since forever, either individually or through cooperatives. That way, "investors" don't need a positive ROI, and they happily lose money overall if they get a home. I know some people that are currently "willing to invest" in buying a ship container or two and transform it into a house to get costs down. The problem? Regulations don't allow them to put the container in their own property. | | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Using a shipping container is almost always a stupid plan compared to just putting up some wood. As much as I want to make zoning more flexible, I'm not in a rush to change that particular regulation. |
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| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | there are many things you can do, but essentially you want to make it profitable for builders to make houses at a lower price point, or give the average person more money. Some approaches (not all of which I'm endorsing): - reduce restrictions around planning / construction / etc (because it takes time and expertise to comply, both of which cost money) - find a way to bring in cheaper labor, or make it possible for construction companies to hire the same labor at a lower price. Maybe a subsidy, maybe reduced taxes, maybe relaxed labor laws - add a subsidy for homes - make your citizens more wealthy, so the price is no longer above their means - outsource construction to a place that can build it more cheaply (eg, prefab homes) | | |
| ▲ | locknitpicker 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > - find a way to bring in cheaper labor, or make it possible for construction companies to hire the same labor at a lower price. Maybe a subsidy, maybe reduced taxes, maybe relaxed labor laws It's far easier than that: just have your regional/local government finance urban renewal projects that increase occupation density. You can even tie the project to the expansion of a public transportation system. |
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| ▲ | wiradikusuma 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Won't the market fill the gap? For example, in Indonesia, "standard size" houses are mostly out of reach for new buyers (young generations), so they build houses farther away and/or smaller. | |
| ▲ | CalRobert 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Remove parking minimums and work to address inequality? If that the case in Austin though? |
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| ▲ | throwaway27448 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Sure, so long as the balance involves not housing people which is pretty sick and twisted |
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| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I never claimed the balance will occur at a point that I like. This is just math, it’s not a political stance. If you want more homes, go build homes. | |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t understand your sentence. What’s the subject of the verb “housing.” | | |
| ▲ | pinkmuffinere 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the subject is perhaps an implied "you", "us", or "society". Here's how I read it: Sure, so long as involves (you / us / society) not housing people which is pretty sick and twisted | |
| ▲ | mwilliaams 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The subject is “people”. Parent is suggesting that the equilibrium point of housing supply and demand naturally leaves some people unhoused. | | |
| ▲ | Retric 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Which isn’t quite accurate as for example people prefer to move out of their parent’s homes while young adults but aren’t necessarily homeless if they don’t. Basic housing is a necessity, but people also huge homes and 2nd homes etc. So housing policy should therefore be more complicated than simply subsidizing anything you can call housing. Capping the home mortgage tax deduction at ~median home prices for example is probably a better use of government funds. | |
| ▲ | ekkeke 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is the object of the sentence. He is asking who the subject is, in other words the thing or person that is doing the housing of the people. Is it the government? Is it you? I'm currently responsible for housing myself, which is annoying so I would prefer someone else take on this responsibility. |
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