They do not have a soul, they are NPCs incapable of reasoning. I don't mean lazy, incapable is literally what they are. Logic escapes them. When they say llms are conscious, and fully intelligent, them are comparing to themselves. If you think about it, they are right to say AGI is here, if the bar is the average human being. If you contemplate this fact for a moment, and start pondering it could be true, your life would change forever. Most beings just do not have a singular perspective, cannot reason, do not have a taste, cannot appreciate someone else's singular perspective. They also do not appreciate art for the same reason. I am sorry, truly. Just let them be. They would kill you before admitting they are forever stuck in Plato's cave.

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basilikum 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Most NPC like take.

Look I get your sentiment. Sometimes it feels like you're the only thinking, conscious being. Surrounded by beings who fundamentally cannot understand that A –> B does not imply B –> A. Beings that say things that are so obviously non-sequiturs or contradictory.

But calling people NPCs is the most NPC thing you can do. There is more to people than logical reasoning and these things often impede or completely block reasoning. Very intelligent people sometimes say the most grotesque things. People turn mad and mad people sometimes get their head set straight.

Sometimes it's not so much about the pure ability to reason but the goal of that person and whether they see understanding something or trying to understand it as helpful towards that goal.

I do agree though that the more intelligent someone is the less likely it is that other things will block their intelligent ability and the harder it is for them to fool themselves into believing absurd nonsense and to blind themselves from apparent truth.

Sometimes after talking with someone – or rather trying to but ending up only talking to them because they just do not manage to understand what I'm saying or to engage with it in any way – I wonder how they manage to get through every day life as that requires solving way more complex practical problems. Yet they do.

	▲	heliumtera an hour ago \| parent [-]
		I liked this response and overall I don't disagree. Just to be clear, I don't have any problems with people considered to be of lower intelligence. This is besides the point. Unfortunately, this isn't something that can be elaborated much further. Since you took the time to respond, and seems to be a little perturbed, I will just say again I was never addressing lack of intelligence or mental capabilities. Intelligent individuals perform well on different educational frameworks, they absorb much faster the rules in place, they have incentives to play along and place trust in the ecosystem they live in. They are the most likely to believe in absurd nonsense. Despite being miserable and powerless, they play along larping as competent for not being challenged by virtual problems, not questioning reality a single day of their lives. And yet, they will fight to death for the opportunity of playing along and never question anything, for the opportunity to be exploited yet again. Intelligent people convinced themselves, day one at school, there is a better way described on the books. They got really good when they understood this. They got pretty rewards. Today, at 35, they behave the same. The books became the articles, hacker news discussions, readme auto generated filled with adjectives. They like adjectives very much. What does this system do? Blazingly fast, secure, sandboxed. Sandboxed? Is it kvm or what? - Secure, production grade, made for x, empower you to y. Are you familiar with the memes about boomer mentality, that believe everything they see on television? Television is now pelican guy articles, ai influencers, Theo, Vercel... If every single decision someone make benefits only the rent seeking parasite, but not the individual deciding...safe to conclude this individual does not care about preserving himself? Self preservation not important, lack of will of power, flacid as fuck... The only conclusion I could possibly arrive is most people like this do not have a soul. How else could I explain? I couldn't make a good job keeping this brief, but tried my best to explain why it is not a matter of intelligence. I said reasoning.

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roncesvalles 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The worst are the ones who say "what if human brains are also just like LLMs". If you've thought about this for any length of time, it's very obvious that we aren't.

	▲	heliumtera 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		>If you've thought about this for any length of time If you full throttle a BWM1000 S RR for a split of a second,at 30mph first gear, it will self eject beneath you. If you do that, for any length of time, you're dead. Do the same on a 50cc motorbike and not much will happen. Even for extended periods of time, not much would happen. You could hold it down until you run out of fuel or the universe gets cold and die, not much would happen. You see, it's not that they are lazy. Or they haven't put any amount of time into understanding how llms operate. Again I am sorry, most people are not capable, at all, of understanding what is happening at inference time. Most developers, nerds, hackers, who do understand how computers operate, cannot really grasp the basics of what an llm is or what the f is going on. Imagine the average guy, your lawyer, the MBA type of person.

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atomicnumber3 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is absurdly misanthropic and dehumanizing.

I firmly believe that every single person on this entire planet has a depth to them that far, far exceeds anything an LLM could even begin to approximate. I'm sorry you're in a position that you can't see that at all - that each and every one of them feel happiness and sadness and love and hate and fear and rage and inspiration and passion and are utterly human. I hope you see it someday.

	▲	heliumtera 5 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I agree with you, every living being is beautiful in their own way. And good on their own way. But we not very well equipped to follow the rules of logic. The most capable of us can follow a very limited number of logical threads, with very limited steps. I don't consider it dehumanizing because attaining true knowledge is not necessarily human or natural for the human apparatus to process. Given enough strain and effort, we can only dabble in the elevated grounds of information and logic. Most people cannot, that is okay. I am not comparing llms to humans in a broad sense, but specific to reasoning, llms are complete shit and so it is the average human. I am not impressed by llms if that was your impression and I am not saying the average human is inferior or deserve suffering lol

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huflungdung 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

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Helloworldboy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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