Remix.run Logo
rconti 7 hours ago

Meanwhile, California is also trying to build housing near transit, but Menlo Park wants to preserve the character of downtown by preserving dirty, cracked, flat, surface-level parking lots like it's 1950.

wcfrobert 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

NIMBYism has never been about preserving neighborhood characteristic, or noise and traffic concerns. Menlo Park is not Big Sur. Sure, some concerns are reasonable and should be investigated, but most of the time they're bureaucratic distractions that's been weaponized by people who want to delay progress and protect their investment.

For most Americans, A house is their primary savings account, retirement plan, and probably where they keep majority of their wealth. We don't build new housing in old neighborhoods because it would de-value the investment of too many people. Until we can solve this problem (where people are incentivized to pull the ladder up behind them), we will always have housing shortages. It's just too profitable.

raybb 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A paper came out about this recently: The City as an Anti- Growth Machine.

> Logan and Molotch's “urban growth machine” remains foundational in urban theory, describing how coalitions of landowners, developers, and politicians promote urban growth to raise land values. This paper argues that under financialized capitalism, the dynamics have inverted: asset appreciation now outweighs productive investment, and urban land is increasingly treated as a speculative asset.

https://doi.org/10.1111/anti.70145

rconti 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've never seen the evidence where density increases drive down existing land/home values.

bps4484 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

it's not that density per se drives down existing costs, but density almost always brings more housing stock to the market (unless they are simultanously tearing down housing elsewhere) and housing stock drives down the cost of housing, which is the point of the original article.

So if we take it as an assumption that density increases housing stock, there is lots of evidence that density drives down prices of existing land/home values.

chii 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

in fact, density increases the value, because the original plot can now be resold at a higher price for a hi-rise.

adrianN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not sure why new housing devalues old housing. In my mind, higher density generally makes an area more desirable (e.g. because higher density enables more jobs, better infrastructure) and raises the value. Imagine as an extreme example and existing house in the middle of nowhere around which a metropolis is developed. Surely the value of the house, or at least the land it is built on, goes up, even though it loses its "cabin in the woods" appeal.

paxys 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You think if there were modern highrises in Menlo Park a tiny 2BR shack next door would still sell for $2M? It’s a supply and demand issue, nothing more.

rconti 3 hours ago | parent [-]

A tiny 2BDR shack next door that is worth $3M because of the 6000sqft lot it sits on _absolutely_ goes up in value when density increases.

danavar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>For most Americans, A house is their primary savings account

This is true for California, where people (foolishly) rely on their home value as their retirement plan, which further incentivizes NIMBYism.

But in places like Texas (and other areas with affordable housing), the house is just treated as something you pay off to have a low housing cost in retirement. And your investments are your retirement+savings account.

sharkjacobs 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not from Texas or California but it doesn't intuitively feel true to me that Texans are better at investing and saving for retirement.

According to the first relevant search result I can find https://www.cnbc.com/select/average-retirement-savings-by-st... the retirement savings per dollar of median annual income in California is $1.44 and in Texas is $1.17

Do you think that's wrong? Or do you think it's a misleading statistic and doesn't contradict your belief?

hunterpayne an hour ago | parent [-]

It all depends on how those things are calculated. Are you including home value in retirement savings or not?

lurk2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

-

armada651 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> If NIMBYs were primary motivated by making money the prudent thing to do would be to support unrestricted zoning and then develop or sell the lot.

That is highly dependent on what exactly is being built next to your home. Sure, if it's more luxury housing then it'll probably drive the value of your home up. If it's low-income housing then it probably won't. And what we need is more of the latter rather than the former.

> you can take out loans against the value of the equity but this isn’t particularly common.

It's because it's an investment, you're going to get the return once you finally sell your home. Only in a pinch if someone needs a large amount of money to start a business or pay for an emergency will they mortgage their house.

KPGv2 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's because it's an investment

The home you live in isn't an investment; it's a store of wealth.

Many lives were ruined by thinking your primary home is an investment.

BenFranklin100 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s going to take a SCOTUS decision overturning Ambler vs Euclid in my opinion.

We certainly will not see zoning reform until the Boomers die.

ttul 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Case in point: my parents. Built a house in 1988 and they still live there. Two people in 3500 square feet. Four bathrooms and five bedrooms. Meanwhile, you need a family income of 3x the median to rent a townhouse 1/3rd the size nearby.

This is beyond ridiculous and it’s totally unsustainable.

terminalshort 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but the boomers will never die. Gen X will become the new boomers, and then the millennials after them. Individual people die, but interests stay the same.

TimorousBestie 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, but the inverted pyramid demographics can’t last forever.

jmyeet 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Fundamentally as a society we need to stop treating housing as an investment. It is and should be a utility.

Suring property prices is a relatively new phenomenon (as in, post-WW2). The true origins of NIMBYism, at least in the US, is (you guessed it) racism. Long before segregation ended, and long after, there was economic segregation. Redlining [1], HOAs [2], the post-WW2 GI Bill [3], where highways were built [4][5], etc.

In fact this is a good rule of thumb: if you're ever confused why something is the way it is in the US, your first guess should pretty much always be "because racism".

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

[2]: https://www.furman.edu/fu/placing-furman/what-are-racially-r...

[3]: https://www.history.com/articles/gi-bill-black-wwii-veterans...

[4]: https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984784455/a-brief-history-of-...

[5]: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-09/robert-mo...

testfrequency 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

TIL Menlo Park claims to have a personality

manquer 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair it is not the city/elected officials who wants to retain the parking lots. The downtown redevelopment would probably make the city a lot of money.

It is the businesses around downtown who are pushing the save downtown campaign. I imagine the businesses contribute a fair chunk of revenue to the city now and have some influence .

Relative to say parts of Redwood City, or Palo Alto. Menlo park has a fair amount of student-ish 4 Unit lots, so it not all zoned SFU.

rconti 3 hours ago | parent [-]

TBF a lot of the complaints are coming from businesses that are _probably_ renting. There is absolutely the chance that their business will go under due to construction disruptions before they can benefit from the increased foot traffic once the development is complete.

And, of course, once the development is complete, and the value of their land goes up, so too does their rent....

manquer 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

It is just not rent that will go up.

Menlo Park today has free and ample parking downtown. RWC is paid parking anywhere within few blocks of downtown, all the garages are paid, the garage on Jefferson Av charges more on Sundays. Same thing in San Mateo downtown.

nout 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Menlo Park people are pretending that they are Atherton.

strbean 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair, parking structures always look and feel pretty distopian.

I like the approach of making downtowns walkable and having a bit of parking at the periphery of downtown, along with good public transit. Encourages people to use public transit to get to town in the first place. Downtown residents can use transit or a zipcar or equivalent when the need to get out of town, instead of devoting a ton of space downtown for storing their cars.

Not sure if that approach is really practical, but if it can be made to work it is much nicer.

rconti 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, in Menlo Park they're just flat surface parking lots, not even multi-story structures. The planned development is multi-story housing with parking underneath.

To be fair, I am boycotting the (similar) underground garage over at Springline because they're clearly made only for people in Range Rovers or whatever. They have those AWFUL ticket machines, set too far back (to avoid getting hit) and too high to access from a normal car.

odyssey7 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Is the Bay Area really dealing with ticket machines? The global capital of technology? Just bill by plate or something.

epistasis 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The global capital of technology has absolute horrid infrastructure and is not on the forefront of any municipal technologies.

There's a big disconnect from people building new projects and local governance, and it's growing. When tech companies started even providing buses for their employees, because local government is too fractured and incapable of running needed bus routes, and can not coordinate across county and city borders, local activists were extremely upset that tech workers were not driving their personal cars and instead using environments-saving and traffic-reducing transit.

mh2266 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I got billed by plate at gravel parking lots in places in Iceland where there were probably more sheep nearby than human residents. Embarrassing.

lotsoweiners 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would bill by ticket machine too if it was my job to collect money on the parking. I’m guessing that the amount of people who never pay is much higher than zero so it really only makes sense when you have such high throughput that the slowdown is detrimental (such as the Bay bridge).

idontwantthis 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or develop 12 competing apps that each only work in different lots.

amarant 6 hours ago | parent [-]

A fellow Swede I presume?

It's extra silly cause I once parked in central Oslo and got the ticket mailed to my sthlm address. No fuss, no problem, super easy!

We got a lot to learn from our neighbours....

terminalshort 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Super easy unless you have moved recently, then you don't get the bill and end up years later in collections for the original amount plus a million late fees added on.

amarant 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Nah it arrives electronically to kivra, which is like email except you log in with your social security number and it's only for "official business" like invoices and whatnot.

idontwantthis an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

No not a Swede at all this is funny! That was my experience parking in the Washington, DC area last year.

umanwizard 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The reasons why the Bay Area is the global capital of technology are absolutely totally unrelated to the quality of infrastructure or the policies of local government there.

It’s mainly due to the state of US technological advancement decades ago when the whole thing got started, the general US-level business-friendly environment, and the presence of an extremely prestigious (especially in science and tech fields) university nearby.

terminalshort 5 hours ago | parent [-]

The specific reason is that William Shockley's mother lived in Palo Alto. Stanford gets the credit but in reality it had nothing to do with the decision.

CyberDildonics 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know if that's a boycott, or just going some place you like better.

rconti 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I park on the street for free. (The lot is also free in monetary cost, for the short windows I'd park there, but the hassle is larger than the hassle of finding street parking).

thaumasiotes 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> They have those AWFUL ticket machines, set too far back (to avoid getting hit) and too high to access from a normal car.

Are you sure it's the ticket machines? Around here, the ticket machines have stayed the same, but it's now impossible to use them without stopping the car and getting out, because car manufacturers have decided I need eight inches of empty space between myself and the side of the car.

tadfisher 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That eight inches is called "side impact protection" and, while it sucks to not be able to comfortably rest your arm on the window sill, it is pretty important to have in the event of an impact to the side.

thaumasiotes 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I liked it when my car could fit inside a parking space, personally.

QuiEgo 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> To be fair, parking structures always look and feel pretty distopian.

What a lot of the new buildings in Austin are doing is putting an attached garage directly behind a 4 + 1 mixed use development - the street-facing facade is the apartments and shops, and the garage is directly behind (and usually attached) to the apartments. You basically never see them.

scoofy 6 hours ago | parent [-]

They put it in the middle usually. It’s literally called the “Texas Doughnut” — a 5 over 1 surround a parking garage.

QuiEgo 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Ha, today I learned.

jojobas 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you owned a 600sqm allotment in Menlo Park surely you'd want it to stay a parking lot and not become vibrant apartment blocks.

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Menlo Park isn't comparable to Austin though - Austin's equivalent of Menlo Park would be a country club CDP in the Austin Hills like Rob Roy.

A better comparison would be ATX against San Jose.

Just like how the "rich" residents of Santa Clara county know that you want to live in Campbell, Los Gatos, Menlo Park, Los Altos, Loyola, etc, similarly rich Texans and Austinites live in the Hills.

The reality is the residents of Menlo Park and Rob Roy don't want your type, and in a lot of cases tend to be the same people as there aren't many places left where you can trail run, bike, eat Michelin star ramen, and not pay income tax.

Just because we make good money in tech, it doesn't make us "them". I highly recommend reading the works of Pierre Bourdieu with regards to cultural capital.

onlyrealcuzzo 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Menlo Park has a higher population density than Austin...

The majority of it is not Bel Air...

alephnerd 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> The majority of it is not Bel Air...

Menlo Park was never a "middle class" town. The 101 was always the (literal) redline.

The median household income is $210K [0] and it's the same demographic, unlike historically lower middle class but now upper middle class San Mateo [1].

A Menlo Park home address that is on the correct side of the 101 opens the same doors in the Bay that a Bel Air address does in Los Angeles or an Austin Hills address does in Austin.

Rich doesn't equal conspicuous, especially in the Bay Area - "Wealth is quiet, rich is loud, poor is flashy"

[0] - https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/menloparkcityca...

[1] - https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanmateocitycal...

jen20 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> opens the same doors in the Bay that a Bel Air address does in Los Angeles or an Austin Hills address does in Austin.

West Lake Hills perhaps (which is not technically Austin) - Austin Hills is not remotely prestigious.

alephnerd an hour ago | parent [-]

> West Lake Hills perhaps

Yep! That's what I meant - Rob Roy, Westlake Hills, Barton Creek around the country clubs, and Lost Creek. Those are the equivalents of much of Menlo Park and Atherton, and I know of a number of people who lived in Menlo+Atherton and moved to those areas of Austin in order to front-run taxes in the run-up of some significant exits.

iknowstuff 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Which side is the rich side?

alephnerd 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

280 to El Camino is "oldish rich" (made their millions in the 1980s-2000s), the El Camino to 101 is "new rich" (made their millions in the 2000s-2010s), and 101 to Meta used to be a Samoan ghetto (literally, redlining was legal until the 60s and unofficially the norm until the 90s) until they were gentrified out.

The old money (rich before tech) to the West of 280 in Woodside and Portola Valley.

pottertheotter 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

South of 101

ctdinjeu2 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

narrator 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

hombre_fatal 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think this is a bunch of retrospective justification when the truth is that home-owners vote against supply expansion measures that may decreases their home value (their main investment).

Just like how people pretend "I'm actually super concerned about emergency vehicles" when it comes to replacing a car lane with a bus/bike lane. It sounds better than admitting they don't want to be inconvenienced, they'd rather have an extra car lane than someone else get a bus/bike lane, etc. So the hand waving begins.

Austin is unique even in Texas for its aggressive construction boom + decreased rent, so it's not even a Texas thing.

mcmcmc 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> In California people are very scared of poor people because they tend to commit more crime and the justice system refuses to prosecute and imprision them, especially if they are criminally insane.

Funny to read this when it’s common knowledge the rich commit so much tax evasion the IRS doesn’t bother investigating, and tech billionaires like Thiel are regularly abusing hard drugs and spewing unhinged theories about the end times and an AI god. You can just say you don’t like poor people. You don’t have to use some statistical fallacy that supports your confirmation bias.

The reality is that the visibility of criminal acts is inversely correlated with income. Why would a rich criminal spray paint graffiti on a building when they’re making so much money off white collar crime that they can just buy it and do whatever they want?

That’s not even getting into all of the things that should be crimes but aren’t, because the ultra wealthy and their megacorps can legally bribe politicians to their hearts content. Or the child sex trafficking. Epstein’s buddies weren’t living rough.

EQmWgw87pw 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What you pointed out doesn’t change the argument. That IS a main driver for NIMBYism in wealthy areas, even if they’re wrong or misguided, even if it’s just false perception. Don’t really know how doing some whataboutism will change that. I think most people would likely choose to live next to a tax avoider over a violent criminal?

narrator 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

mcmcmc 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah yes, an ad hominem is an excellent way to deflect from reality. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

narrator 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Performative ignorance is when you dispute something supported by tons of empirical evidence with a few anecdotes and whatever you just made up and expect me to spend time refuting it. It's the same technique flat earthers and young earth creationists use.

dmitrygr 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

1-6 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't expect Menlo Park to keep it character for long as Silicon Valley CEOs are fleeing the state.