| ▲ | da_chicken an hour ago | |
I've said it before, but I maintain that XML has only two real problems: 1. Attributes should not exist. They make the document suddenly have two dimensions instead of one, which significantly increases complexity. Anything that could be an attribute should actually be a child element. 2. There should be one close tag: `</>` which closes the last element, which burns a significant amount of space with useless syntax. Other than that and the self-closing `<tag />` (which itself is less useful without attributes) there isn't much that you need. Maybe a document close tag like `<///>` You'll notice that, yes, JSON solves both of those things. That's a part of why it's so popular. The other is just that a lot more effort was put into maximizing the performance of JavaScript than shredding XML, and XSLT, the intended solution to this problem, is infamous at this point. The problem of comments is kind of a non-issue in practice, IMO. You can just add a `"_COMMENT"` element or similar. Sure, yes, it will get parsed. But you shouldn't have that many comments that it will cause a genuine performance issue. However, JSON still has two problems: 1. Schema support. You can't validate that a file before de-serializing it in your application. JSON Schema does exist, but it's support is still thin, IMX. 2. Many serializers are pretty bad with tabular data, and nearly all of them are bad with tabular data by default. So sometimes it's a data serialization format that's bad at serializing bulk data. Yeah, XML is worse at this. Yeah, you can use the `"colNames": ["id", ...], "rows": [ [1,...],[2,...] ]` method or go columnar with `"id": [1,2,...], "name": [...], "createDate": [...]`, but you had better be sure both ends can support that format. In both cases, it seems like there is an attempt to resolve both of those issues. OpenAPI 3.1 has JSON schema included in it. The most popular JSON parsers seem to be adding tabular data support. I guess we'll see. | ||
| ▲ | phlakaton 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | |
I disagree on several points here: 1. I think attributes absolutely should exist. They're great for describing metadata related to the tag: e.g. element ID, language, datatype, source annotation, namespacing. They add little in complexity. 2. The point of a close tag with a name is to make it unambiguous what it's trying to close off. It sounds to me like what you want is not a better XML, but just s-exprs. Which is fine, but not quite solving the same problem. 3. As far as schema support, it seems to me that JSON Schema is well-established and perfectly cromulent – so much so that YAML authors are trying to use it to validate their stuff (the poor bastards) – and XML schema validation, while robust, is a complex and fragmented landscape around DTD, XSD, RELAX-NG, and Schematron. So although XML might have the edge, it's a more nuanced picture than XML proponents are claiming. 4. As far as tabular data, neither XML nor JSON were built for efficient tabular data representation, so it shouldn't be a surprise that they're clunky at this. Use the right tool for the job. | ||
| ▲ | somat 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | |
Attributes exist due to it's origin as a markup language. XML is actually (big surprise) a pretty good markup language. Where the tags are sort of like function calls and the attributes are args. With little to no information to be gleaned out of the text. The big sin was to say "hey the tooling is getting pretty good for for these sgml like markup languages. Lets use it as a structured data interchange format. It's almost the same thing". Now all the data is in the text and the attributes are not just superfluous but actively harmful as there is a weird extra data axis that people will aggressively use. | ||
| ▲ | Spivak 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | |
Hard disagree about attributes, each tag should be a complete object and attributes describe the object.
But objects can also be containers and that's what nesting is for. There shouldn't ever be two dimensions in the way you're describing. The pattern of
is the root of most XML evil. Now you have to know if myobject is a container or a franken-object with a strict sub-schema in order to parse it. The biggest win of JSON is that .loads/.dump make it really obvious that it's for serializing complete objects where a lot of tooling surrounding XML makes you poke at the document tree. | ||