| ▲ | TheDong 11 hours ago |
| > The kid who tries to run Blender on a Chromebook doesn’t learn that his machine can’t handle it. He learns that Google decided he’s not allowed to. Or they learn to enable developer mode, unlock the bootloader, and install Linux, or use the officially supported Crostini, or so on. There's like 3 different ways to run Linux desktop apps on a modern Chromebook. The Macbooks don't let have an officially supported path to unlocking the bootloader (edit: yes, I'm aware of asahi linux, which lives on the edge of what apple allows) and install your own OS. The Chromebooks do. I don't think that comparison plays as favorably as you think. |
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| ▲ | rafram 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The bootloader isn’t locked. Asahi’s developers have written about how Apple specifically built support for third-party OSes into the bootloader. |
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| ▲ | pjerem 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The same Asahi developers also wrote about how Apple didn’t document anything and especially, Apple never talked in public about this. Apple betting Apple, If they had cared a single second about this, they would have called this Bootcamp 2. Honestly I’m pretty convinced that this « open » bootloader was just there to avoid criticism and bad press from specialized outlets when they presented the M1 because, for once, they needed specialized outlet to benchmark the M1 performance and not have anything bad to say about anything else. They constantly break everything year after year without documenting any change which effectively makes Asahi unusable in anything recent. I’m betting that they are just patiently waiting for Asahi to die by being too late of several years (which is already the case) to announce « The most secure Mac ever » silently releasing with closed bootloader when nobody and especially the press will care anymore. Don’t get me wrong, I love Asahi and I even have it installed on my M2 Air, the project is doing incredible quality work. But I don’t believe it will last long. Hope I’m wrong, though. | | |
| ▲ | derefr 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For them to call it Bootcamp 2 (a "product" per se), they'd have had to have another OS they could actually demo installing. Otherwise "Bootcamp 2" is just a mysterious empty chooser window. But at the time there was nothing, because Apple Silicon wasn't a platform anyone but them was targeting, because they had just created it. So they built the infrastructure, and then waited for someone to actually start taking advantage of it, before bothering to acknowledge it. And because that "someone" isn't a bigcorp (i.e. Microsoft) wanting to do a co-marketing push, but just FOSS people gradually building something but never quite "launching" a 1.0 of it — Apple just "acknowledged" it quietly, at developer conferences, exposing it only via developer-centric CLI tooling, rather than with the sort of polished UI experience they would need if Microsoft was trying to convince Joe Excel User to dual-boot Windows on their Apple Silicon MBP. > announce « The most secure Mac ever » silently releasing with closed bootloader That's extremely unlikely to happen, as Apple's hardware and OS developers build Macs and macOS (and all the other hardware + OSes) using Macs and macOS. And those engineers (and engineers working at Apple's hardware and accessory manufacturing partners) will always need to be able to diddle around with the kernel and extensions "in anger" without needing to go through a three-day-turnaround code-signing process. There's a whole proprietary, distributed kernel development and QC flow for macOS, that looks a lot like the Linux one (i.e. with all the same bigcorps involved making sure their stuff works), but all happening behind closed doors. But all the same stuff still needs to happen regardless, to ensure that buggy drivers don't ship. Thus macOS kernel development mode being just one reboot-and-toggle away. | | |
| ▲ | Nathan2055 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > And because that "someone" isn't a bigcorp (i.e. Microsoft) wanting to do a co-marketing push, but just FOSS people gradually building something but never quite "launching" a 1.0 of it — Apple just "acknowledged" it quietly, at developer conferences, exposing it only via developer-centric CLI tooling, rather than with the sort of polished UI experience they would need if Microsoft was trying to convince Joe Excel User to dual-boot Windows on their Apple Silicon MBP. It's also important to remember that Microsoft was in the middle of their Qualcomm exclusivity deal at the time of the M1's release, and thus Windows for ARM wasn't available on anything other than a few select devices or unofficial use of Insider builds. That deal didn't actually expire until 2024[1], at which point Windows for ARM finally started to be sold in an official capacity with stable builds widely available. It's entirely possible, though unconfirmed, that Apple was intentionally leaving the door open for "Boot Camp 2", and Microsoft simply never took them up on the offer, either because they were stuck in a deal made prior to the M1's release that prevented it, or because they no longer saw a financial benefit to being able to sell Windows to Mac users (possibly since Windows license sales are effectively a rounding error to Microsoft at this point; they make way more off of subscription services and/or Office, all of which are already available on macOS without having to dual-boot Windows). [1]: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/windows-on-a... | |
| ▲ | NamlchakKhandro 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | saithir 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > announce « The most secure Mac ever » silently releasing with closed bootloader Is that gonna be before or after the iphone with no usb port? | |
| ▲ | amelius 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Apple's legal department will kill it once someone tells them the project is a handy tool for patent trolls to mine for infringements. | |
| ▲ | wnoise 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | To be clear, "Apple" is a group, not a unified thing with one will. That doesn't mean that the engineeers will necessarily ship something more flexible than what the PMs asked for. Often not. But sometimes they will. |
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| ▲ | t-writescode 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Switching to developer mode is very likely something he won’t be doing nor allowed to do on the Chromebook his parents bought him or the school assigned him. |
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| ▲ | sagarm 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Will a managed MacBook allow the installation of random native apps, either? Though let's be realistic, here: $600 is much more than the typical school-assigned Chromebook. | | |
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| ▲ | wolvoleo 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You can't install a different OS on these? Are they different from the M series? Because those have Asahi Linux. |
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| ▲ | TheDong 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Asahi linux effectively only supports the M1 and M2 chips, so even a modern macbook air won't work, and even on "supported devices" you can't use thunderbolt or a usb-c display yet. These use the A series chip, and even supporting new M chip revisions has been enough of an undertaking that I wouldn't really expect this to get Asahi linux anytime soon.... And apple can lock down the bootloader to be closer to the iPad/iPhone at any time with no notice, and based on their past actions, it would be quite in-line with their character to do so. | | | |
| ▲ | artimaeis 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Asahi only supports M1 and M2 series Macs currently. The Neo uses an A18 Pro, which was only ever in an iPhone before. I wouldn’t count on Asahi coming to these soon. | | |
| ▲ | MBCook 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I see no reason they couldn’t. But we know there’s lots of other models that they’re already working on. We don’t know how similar or different it is from an OS perspective. | | |
| ▲ | adrian_b 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | The reason is the lack of documentation from Apple. Reverse engineering needs a lot of time and hard work, which may not be worthwhile. Sometimes someone does this work, and everyone may benefit from it, but you should never count on this happening, unless you do the work yourself. | | |
| ▲ | zozbot234 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Reverse engineered documentation is very often preferable to the internal kind, which is not necessarily accurate. So either way, the Asahi folks are doing valuable work. |
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| ▲ | gedy 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe some of these agentic AI superstars can point their 100x engineering chops at this. This would impress me but not going to hold my breath for that. |
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| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Surprisingly enough you don’t need Linux to learn about computers. You know that Macs have terminal? | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The default Mac terminal environment is the Weetabix of UNIX-likes. You need GNU coreutils to do pretty much anything. | | |
| ▲ | rz2k 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm confused. Isn't coreutils a just small subset of even macOS's current zsh's builtins? What do you prefer about systemd to launchd? defaults seems like a convenient way to manage settings. Is it confusing for people from other operating systems? | |
| ▲ | hollerith 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Name one thing lacking in the utilities included with MacOS (which come from BSD). | | |
| ▲ | Paracompact 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | `grep -P` kinda annoying. GNU has Perl-compatible regex, and BSD does not. You're reaching for `perl` or installing `ggrep` the moment you need a lookbehind. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetyk 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | BSD grep is the pure grep version though. Perl regex is unnecessary bloat. |
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| ▲ | realusername 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is it still shipping with that ancient bash, the awful Iterm and without a package manager? I haven't used OSX for a while. | | |
| ▲ | wolvoleo 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | No. Zsh is now standard, though it still included an old optional version of bash. Apple hates GPLv3 that's why they moved away from bash. The terminal app is not iterm. But Apple's own Terminal.app And no there's no package manager but there's brew and macports. | | |
| ▲ | realusername 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I didn't know it was an homemade terminal, it's just that it looked old and abandoned compared to your average Linux distribution. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The overwhelming majority of UNIX-like software isn't designed for BSD runtimes, to name one. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So exactly eves “Unix like software” will kids be missing that prevents them from learning about computers? | |
| ▲ | veltas 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The overwhelming majority of UNIX-like software is available in the package managers right now for major BSDs. | |
| ▲ | hollerith 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I ask for a specific example, and you respond with more generalities. | |
| ▲ | freeone3000 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Aside from the BSD software, the Mac software, and all the software that’s actually POSIX-compliant (on purpose or by accident). |
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| ▲ | nickvec 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I was sadly too dumb in high school to figure out how to get Linux running on my Chromebook. |
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| ▲ | pseudocomposer 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There’s an entire Linux distro (Asahi) for MacBooks. Apple has never released a Mac with a locked bootloader. And macOS frankly provides a far better Unix experience than ChromeOS, in my experience, having actually used both (including for development, though only for a short time on ChromeOS because it was horrible). |
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| ▲ | adrian_b 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apple did not lock the bootloader, but they do not provide documentation for their products. What would have been a trivial porting work with documentation, becomes extremely time-consuming and hard work without documentation. That is why Asahi Linux lags by several years with the support for Apple computers, and it is unlikely that this lag time will ever be reduced. Even for the old Apple computers the hardware support is only partial, so such computers are never as useful for running Linux as AMD/Intel based computers. |
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| ▲ | sipjca 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is an argument, but it’s also fundamentally comparing a computer that works out of the box to one that doesn’t. |
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| ▲ | ToucanLoucan 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Or they learn to enable developer mode, unlock the bootloader, and install Linux, or use the officially supported Crostini, or so on. There's like 3 different ways to run Linux desktop apps on a modern Chromebook. Oh so all our hypothetical child has to do to discover what computers can actually do is completely rebuild one's software from scratch with no prior knowledge. Next you'll tell me F1 drivers in their teens just have to LS swap a Saturn SC2 and book time at a track. |
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| ▲ | jayd16 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's really not that hard. Someone who can follow a tutorial can do it. 5 seconds of googling will get you an answer to "install blender on a Chromebook" | | |
| ▲ | zzyzxd 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I used to be the cool tech guy in school because I memorized the tutorial to jailbreak iPhone or to cheat in games with a memory editor. You know, stuff like "when you see this screen, click that icon", "find row 5 and change the second value to 0", or "open terminal, copy paste this command and hit enter". I don't think I learned anything useful from those. | | |
| ▲ | harvey9 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You learned that such things are even possible, and you learned that other people saw you as the cool tech guy just because you took time to memorise that stuff. | |
| ▲ | stickynotememo 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, sure. Maybe you're the kid in the article who opened Xcode and Blender and Final Cut, but it didn't click for you. Of course not everything is for everyone, but it doesn't prove exploring the limits like that is a bad thing. | | |
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| ▲ | eru 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And these days, you can ask your favourite LLM for step by step advice, and you can even give it shaky phone camera shots of the error message on your screen. | |
| ▲ | ToucanLoucan 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's really not that hard. Of course not. I could do it in a coma. I've also been using computers since 2004, and you're probably similar. | | |
| ▲ | throwawaytea 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've been using computers since 1991 (I'm 42, from 1984), and to be honest this stuff is getting harder and more confusing, not easier. Mostly because it keeps changing, and not based on any logic towards improvement. Sure I'm good at getting my questions and problems solved now, especially with AI, but I don't believe I have the ingrained mastery I felt after a while with computers in the 90s. |
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| ▲ | VladVladikoff 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| ?? I installed Omarchy on an old MBP simply by inserting the usb stick into a USB port and holding a key combo during boot. Didn’t have to unlock anything. |
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