| ▲ | bbkane 10 hours ago |
| Employers are also inundated by applications so they're applying higher bars to meet as a sort of back pressure. I hate it from the candidates' perspective, but it's not illogical from the employer perspective. No, I don't know how to fix it. |
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| ▲ | nitwit005 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Getting a lot of applications that don't meet your standard doesn't force you to raise you bar. You still just need someone who meets your standard. It's quite rare for companies to have evidence to support their hiring methods, which unfortunately means it's heavily driven by trends. |
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| ▲ | tmoertel 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Getting a lot of applications that don't meet your standard doesn't force you to raise you[r] bar. You still just need someone who meets your standard. I'm not sure that first sentence true. Let me play Devil's advocate: What's the primary cause of not being able to find someone who meets your standard when you already get lots of applications? It's that your hiring process is bogged down by the masses of unwanted candidates you must evaluate to find the few wanted candidates in the crowd of applicants. And what's the fix? It's better screening. Which is raising your bar, isn't it? Even if it's only to add cargo-cult screens to your bar, it's making the bar more selective, isn't it? Fewer people clear it, right? | | |
| ▲ | nitwit005 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Arbitrary filtering of candidates is always an option, but then you may as well do it as cheaply as possible. Throw out half the resumes. | | |
| ▲ | dwohnitmok 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Arbitrary filtering of candidates doesn't reduce the effort that it takes. Let's say 1 out of 1000 of the candidates you see is what you need. The total amount of effort to find the right candidate is still the same. But throwing out half the resumes just doubles the amount of time until you find the candidate you need (you just spread lower effort over a longer time). On the other hand if you "raise your bar" (let's say you do so by some method that makes it twice as expensive to judge a candidate; twice as likely to reject a candidate that would fit what you need, i.e. doubles your false negative rate; but cuts down on the number of applications by 10x, so that now 1 out of 100 candidates are what you need, which isn't that far off the mark for certain kinds of things), you cut down the effort (and time) you need to spend on finding a candidate by over double. EDIT: On reflection I think we're mainly talking past each other. You are thinking of a scenario where all stages take roughly the same amount of effort/time, whereas tmorel and I are thinking of a scenario where different stages take different amounts of effort/time. If you "raise the bar" on the stages that take less amount of effort/time (assuming that those stages still have some amount of selection usefulness) then you will reduce the overall amount of time/energy spent on hiring someone that meets your final bar. | | |
| ▲ | nitwit005 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wasn't suggesting arbitrarily removing candidates was a good idea, but simply responding to their specific devils advocate example of applying "cargo cult screens", which would presumably be arbitrary. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And why would this be the case? Maybe the solution is to ban AI from the hiring process. This seems like companies being hoisted by their own petard. This is because they are the ones who drove the hiring market to be this way. They are the ones who started using AI in the hiring process. They are the ones who decided to make applying so much work driving applicants to use AI to survive. Also, if you are having trouble hiring right now, that is 1000% a skill issue. It is easier to hire good talent right now than ever before. So I have absolutely 0 sympathy for this POV. Go down to your HR department if you want to see who is at fault. PS You fix it by charging $1 to apply for jobs. Took me all of 30 seconds to figure that one out. |
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| ▲ | switchbak 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > charging $1 to apply for jobs Yeah, I don't see anyone lining up to game that system. Maybe you ought to think about that a little longer than 30 seconds. | |
| ▲ | diacritical 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I wouldn't pay anything to a company I'm applying to, but I would gladly send a small amount of money to a charity and show them the relevant bank or cryptocurrency proof if they explain why they need the micropayment. They could present me with a list of 10 or 10000 charities, I'd pick 1 and put "micropayment for applying to company X" in the comment of the payment. That way I know I'm not giving money to some huge corporation and they know I think applying to their job should at least cost me Y amounts of currency. And if they waste more than an hour of my time with the hiring process, they could similarly pay a charity some money per hour. That was neither me nor the company will feel cheated and in the end, no matter how the hiring turns out, a charity will have benefited. | | |
| ▲ | fwipsy 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | To avoid overhead for many small payments, start a platform where users can buy many credits at once by contributing larger amounts to charity. Then, you burn your credits to apply to companies (or cold message applicants) to show you're not just spraying and praying. | | |
| ▲ | diacritical 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Some more thoughts before I go to bed. This could also be used for combating spam elsewhere, like posting in forums, comment sections and so on. To preserve privacy, something like zero-knowledge proofs could be utilized. I don't know how the cryptography would work exactly, but if you can't double spend a credit and you can choose whether to keep it anonymous or not, it could work, too. It would be best if for a given credit spent, you could only disclose your identity to the entity you want access to, not the credit issuing entity. For spam, it seems like the cost of maintaining a forum like the servers are much lower than the cost of the mods that deal with spam. So instead of paying the forum directly, we lower the need for human mods to spend their time. That way we lower resources to the forum indirectly. The credits could be per post or per account creation. I assume the HN mods' time is worth a lot more than the servers and power HN runs on. Also, we won't have the issue that PoW and other proofs-of-X's have of being easier to do on some devices, but harder on others (like the power and time it takes to run PoW on a beefy desktop with AES-NI vs an on old phone). But we'll still have the issue with different standards of living in different places making the credits more or less expensive for the user subjectively. Companies hiring worldwide could require different amounts of credits for applicants from different countries, but for forums this wouldn't work. A solution to that could be issuers giving credits for local volunteering work. Clean up some garbage from the shore and get a credit regardless of whether you're in the USA or Bangladesh. But if you want to prevent credits from being traded (do we? idk) and, at the same time, have some amount of privacy, how would you do it? But now you'd have to make sure that credit issuers all over the world only issue credits for real charity-like work. And who's to say how to value picking up garbage vs volunteering at an animal shelter vs donating 1$ to a charity. It's interesting to think about this, even though I don't have any resource to implement anything like that. |
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| ▲ | encom 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You have invented micro-payments, which has never worked, ever. | | |
| ▲ | mistrial9 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | micro-payments were sabotaged by existing financial interests on multiple levels |
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| ▲ | sds357 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe we should go back to show up in person to drop off your resume |
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| ▲ | ccosky 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn't be surprised if eventually hiring becomes heavily dependent on personal referrals. That way you know you're at least dealing with a real person and not a bot, a North Korean trying to infiltrate your company, or someone who isn't even authorized to work in your country. |
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| ▲ | eikenberry 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Smaller companies is one fix. These are almost all problems of fast growth and scale. |
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| ▲ | ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is that spambots don’t care how big the company is. I know folks that advertised local Office Manager positions for tiny companies, and got hundreds of totally unqualified and unrelated rèsumès, and that was before AI was common. The “good” news, was, that it was pretty easy to bin the spam. |
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| ▲ | RobotToaster 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Require paper application. If someone has to pay for a stamp it will stop spam applications. |
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| ▲ | deathanatos 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | … needing to pay for postage hardly stops the spam I receive in my own mail. Even the most trivially absurd stuff, like "install rooftop solar" — I don't own a roof. | | |
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| ▲ | gedy 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In the end companies don't need to hook up to the sewer pipe that floods applications. What worked in past was (heaven forbid) technical hiring manager looking at resumes, etc and reaching out to clearly qualified candidates. Not hr 20-somethings with humanities degrees. Sorry |
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| ▲ | tayo42 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Certification process like what Cisco has. All companies attempt to give the same interviews, just have one centralized organization give two programing questions and two system design questions and some kind of proof once you pass it. You filter every one that can't pass the interview in the first place, you get a better interview experience, and just focus on experience |
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| ▲ | singleshot_ 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | This sounds an awful lot like a college diploma. | | |
| ▲ | bigfishrunning 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Lots of people get through engineering school but are terrible engineers. Interviews are important (and difficult... Not many people are good interviewers!) | |
| ▲ | tayo42 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Colleges aren't all equal. Professional certifications are different | | |
| ▲ | hunterpayne 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Professional certifications have a terrible reputation for good reason. You are perhaps too young to know why this is a silly idea. But its been tried and it failed spectacularly. | | |
| ▲ | acheron 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It works in essentially every other profession. Programming isn’t that special. | | |
| ▲ | jjmarr 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In essentially every other profession the credential is gated behind years of work experience and often a degree or course. We already have such a credential. It's called "lasting two years at a FAANG+ without getting fired". If you do that you can get interviews anywhere. | |
| ▲ | operatingthetan 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It appears that the coding job will be some variation will be some variation of vibecoding going forward, so a professional cert might be good enough. |
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| ▲ | tayo42 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I have an example of a certification that is useful in my first comment... |
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