| ▲ | RealityVoid 10 hours ago |
| I think using AI for a bit more potent spellchecking or style hints is... fine, honestly. I don't usually do it, you can tell from all the silly spelling mistakes I do. But a bit more polishing for your posts is a good thing, not a bad one, as long as it doesn't hide your voice. |
|
| ▲ | aethrum 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The problem is it always hides your voice. Always |
| |
| ▲ | peacebeard 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a big difference between "asking an editor for suggestions" and "vibe posting". You don't lose your voice if you ask for advice and manually incorporate the suggestions you agree with. You might lose your voice if you say "Improve my comment to make it better" and copy-paste the result without another thought. | |
| ▲ | hendersonreed 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It hides your voice, and shortcuts your thinking process, because your editing is when you actually evaluate what you think! When using LLMs to write, the temptation to avoid actually thinking about what you're communicating is too much for most people. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm increasingly convinced that most people spend most of their lives actively trying to find ways to avoid actually thinking about things. When I look at it that way I figure that either we achieve benevolent AGI in the near to medium term or society collapses due to whatever the asymptotic form of today's LLMs is. |
| |
| ▲ | Griffinsauce 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the words of the comment: the rough edges are what make you.. you! Keep polishing and everything eventually turns into a smooth shiny ball. We need texture, roughness, edges. | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | An LLM telling me I mispeled a word isn't changing my voice. Especially when I know the proper spelling and simply have a typo. An LLM telling me I omitted a qualifier and that my statement isn't saying what I meant it to say isn't changing my voice - it's ensuring what you see is my voice. | | |
| ▲ | recursive 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's a simple solution to the spelling part. Use a spell checker. They seem to work pretty well. |
| |
| ▲ | causal 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep. I actually prefer seeing imperfect writing, there is signal there that AI would erase. | |
| ▲ | aperrien 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe. But it can also help people find their voice. And I'd rather have comments from someone knowledgeable but unrefined with some good guidance than their silence on that same topic. | |
| ▲ | sdenton4 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | AI doesn't just hide your voice -- it improves it! | |
| ▲ | adampunk 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I had a README with a curse word in it and the agent would try repeatedly to remove it in drive by edits bundle in with some other change. |
|
|
| ▲ | goostavos 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You do all of that when leaving a comment on HN? Why...? I'm confused by this need(?) desire(?) to polish things that are irrelevant. |
| |
| ▲ | RealityVoid 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, I do not, I mentioned asmuch in my post. But I do not hold it against those that do. I think if you want to make a point across, doing this the most effective way without detracting from the point is a good thing. Relevance is in the eye of the beholder. |
|
|
| ▲ | altairprime 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Polish hides your voice. If your composition skills are lacking and you feel that hinders your self expression, set aside some time to improving them: write a short (15 minutes) blog post about some HN topic to yourself in a word doc editor of some sort (Word, Gdocs, LibreOffice, etc); then enable Review Changes and annotate your post for 10 minutes; then, review and accept your changes individually and re-read what you’ve written. AI is being used as a substitute for skills development when it costs nothing but time to get better. If you’ve reached a plateau with the above method, go find an article or book or interview about editing, pay attention to it and take notes, rinse/repeat. Spellcheckers will catch grossly obvious errors, but not phonetic typos. AI grammar tools will defang, weaken, soften, neutralize your tone towards the aggregate boring-meh that they incorporated at training time. Each person will have to decide whether they want individuality or AI-assisted writing for themselves. Sure, some will get away with it undetected, but that’s a universal statement about all human criteria of any kind, and in no way detracts from the necessity of drawing a line in the sand and saying “no” to AI writing here. Consider the Borg. Everyone’s distinctiveness has been added to the Collective. The end result is mediocre (they sure do die a lot), inhuman (literally), and uniform (all variation is gone). It’s your right if you desire to join the Collective and be a uniform lego brick like the others, but then your no-longer-fully-human posts are no longer welcome at HN. |
| |
| ▲ | ordu 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | > a word doc editor of some sort (Word, Gdocs, LibreOffice, etc); then enable Review Changes and annotate your post for 10 minutes; then, review and accept your changes individually and re-read what you’ve written. Pffff... I'm not going to install LibreOffice for that, or to figure out how to make Gdocs to work with uBlock. There is a much easier way. Open LLM chat, type there "Proofread please for grammar, keep the wording and the tone as it is, if it doesn't mess with grammar. Explain yourself." and then paste your text. I don't really know what the tools you mentioned do, but any "free" LLM on the Internet will point to things like missing articles, or messed up tenses in complex sentences. You recommend choosing self-improvement, but I just don't believe I can figure out how to use articles. With tenses I think I can learn how to do it, but I'm not going to. I remember there is some obscure rule how to choose the right tenses, but I was never able to remember the rule itself. I'm bad with rules, it is the reason I chose math as my major. There are almost no rules in math, you are making your own rules. The grammars of languages are not like that, they have rules which can't be easily inferred, you need to remember them. Grammars have exceptions to rules, and exceptions to exceptions, and in any case they are not the rules, but more like guidelines, because people normally don't think about rules when they are talking or writing. No way I'm starting to learn rules now, I'd better continue to rely on my skills. But LLMs can help me see when my skills fail me. > It’s your right if you desire to join the Collective and be a uniform lego brick like the others, but then your no-longer-fully-human posts are no longer welcome at HN. I believe you (as most of fervent supporters of the rule here) gone too far onto philosophy with this, too far from the reality and practice. You can't detect AI in my messages, because they are mine. Even when I ask LLM to find words for me, it is me who picks one of the proposed alternatives, but mostly I manage without wording changes. I transfer the LLM's edits by hand by editing the source message, so nothing unnoticed can slip into the final result. If I took the effort to ask an LLM to proofread, it means I care about the result more than usual, so I'm investing more effort into it, not less. | | |
| ▲ | RealityVoid 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I'm bad with rules, it is the reason I chose math as my major. There are almost no rules in math, you are making your own rules. There's what now? I do think math is flexible but it feels like there are plenty of rules, depending on the context. | |
| ▲ | altairprime 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | An AI may be able to teach you basic grammar but it’s not going to teach you to develop your voice. By design and content training set, an AI today can only pressure you towards the mean of whatever criteria you specify, not away from it. Developing your voice by doing your own proofreading pressures you away from the mean, by helping you double down on what you value most and by choosing which grammatical rules to disregard and when disregarding them is more in-tone for yourself than adherence. I can’t stop you and I won’t remember your handle after an hour has passed (being nameblind is interesting online), so you’ll probably go unnoticed by me, sure. But I still won’t equate regressing to the AI mean with personal growth away from the average masses. | | |
| ▲ | ordu 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > An AI may be able to teach you basic grammar but it’s not going to teach you to develop your voice. Well, no one can help you to develop your voice. If it is your voice, then it have to be your own creation. I think we are at agreement here. > Developing your voice by doing your own proofreading pressures you away from the mean, by helping you double down on what you value most and by choosing which grammatical rules to disregard and when disregarding them is more in-tone for yourself than adherence. Oh... If I wanted to become a professional writer, then I'd agree with you. Maybe... You see, I don't use LLM to fix my writing in Russian, because with Russian I'm totally in control of my grammar, I know when I deviate from it and if I do, I do it consciously. But with English I don't know. Sometimes I can see that I don't know how to follow English grammar in some particular case, and sometimes I don't even notice that I don't know. So, returning to your argument, if I wanted to become a famous English writer, I think I'd choose to write a lot and discuss my writing with LLM, and I'd do it for hundreds of hours. LLM are unbelievably useful for digging into language nuances. Before LLMs I had urbandictionary, but it could help with specific phrases, not with choosing between "I took the effort to ask an LLM" and "I took the effort of asking an LLM". I wouldn't have a clue that there is any semantic difference. But LLM can point to it, and it can explain the difference, and give me more examples of it. Or it can point that "you recommend to choose" is not good, because of "something-something" I don't remember what, but it boils down to "you just have to remember, that the right way to use the verb 'recommend' is 'recommend choosing'". I don't see the difference, I can't choose to disregard it, because I have no opinion on if it is good or bad. If I wanted to become an English writer, I'd spend hundreds of hours with LLM, just to get an ability to see as many differences as it is possible, to get an idea of what I value most, and which grammatical rules I like to disregard. But even after that, I think I'd continue to use LLM. It can provide unexpected takes on what you feed into it. ... Hmm... I should try it with Russian. In Russian I can pick a style for my writing and to follow it (in English I can't control the style consciously), I can (and do sometimes) turn grammar inside-out, make it alien, readable for a native speaker, but in weird ways readable (a bit like letters written by Terry Pratchett heroes like Granny Weatherwax or Carrot)... I wonder, if I can employ LLM to make it even more weird. > I still won’t equate regressing to the AI mean with personal growth away from the average masses. I can't obviously judge in which direction LLMs are changing my English, so I can't even give you an anecdotal counter-evidence to your statements about regression to AI mean, but I'm still sure that I'm not regressing to the mean. You see, I pick when to follow LLM advice and when not to. I'm choosing what to change. The regression to the mean you are talking to is going on in a high dimensional space, you can regress on some dimensions and continue to deviate from the mean on others as much as you like. I don't like to deviate on grammar dimensions (at least without knowing about my deviations), I was born in a family of a teacher and an engineer, which were all into to be educated and the familiarity with the grammar was one of the important part of it, and I was born in USSR, where the proper grammar was enforced in all media to the extent that make me laugh and rebel against grammar (after all the decades passed, lol). But I can't allow myself to just ignore grammar, I was taught in a way to use it properly. So I decide to use LLM. I'm too lazy to do it each time, or even every second time, but still I use it and learn from it. The prospect to regress to the mean by using LLM seems very unlikely to me. I don't regress with all the propaganda around me when regressing is the most safe thing to do really, so mere LLM stand no chance to achieve it. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | the_af 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| When do you need to spellcheck or polish an HN comment? I've never, ever, ever ever ever, seen anybody complain about spelling mistakes in a comment here. As long as you can understand the comment, people respond to it. |
| |
| ▲ | Kim_Bruning 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Extend spellcheck to asking questions like "does it meet HN rules" "how can I improve my writing" etc. Though these are the kinds of questions that do at very least still meet the spirit of the rule, I suppose. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do you really need an automated tool to tell you whether you're breaking common sense guidelines? And why would you want to "improve your writing" for an HN comment? I think people here value raw authenticity more than polished writing. | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Do you really need an automated tool to tell you whether you're breaking common sense guidelines? Lots of people break HN guidelines. I see it virtually every day. > And why would you want to "improve your writing" for an HN comment? Some people like to write well regardless of the medium. Why is that a problem for you? > I think people here value raw authenticity more than polished writing. Classic false dichotomy. Asking an LLM for feedback is not making your comment less authentic. As I pointed out elsewhere, it can make your comment more authentic by ensuring that what you had in your head and what you wrote match. Go and study writing and psychology. For anything of value, it's rare that your first attempt reflects what you meant to say. It's also rare that the first attempt, even if it reflects what you meant, will not be absorbed by the recipient. Saying what you mean, and having it understood as you meant it, is a difficult skill. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Lots of people break HN guidelines. I see it virtually every day. Yes, and AI won't help here. People will use AI to better break the guidelines. > Go and study writing and psychology Is this a case where you should have read the guidelines? Maybe an LLM could have helped you here? Please don't send me study anything, you know what they say of ASSuming. > Some people like to write well regardless of the medium. Why is that a problem for you? HN is more like talking than writing. And LLMs don't help you write well, they help you sound like a clone, which is unwanted. > For anything of value, it's rare that your first attempt reflects what you meant to say. You can always edit your comment. And in any case, HN is like a live conversation. Imagine if your friend AI-edited their speech in real-time as they talked to you. | | |
| ▲ | Kim_Bruning 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Depends on how you use the AI. if you use it a bit like you'd ask a human to proof-read your work, AI can actually be quite helpful. The other important thing you can do is have an AI check your claims before you post. Even with google and pubmed, a quick check against sources by hand can take 30 minutes or longer, while with AI tooling it takes 5. Guess which one is more likely to actually lead to people checking their facts before they post. (even if imperfectly!) . I'm not talking about people who lazily ask the AI to write their post for them. Or those who don't actually go through and actually get the AI to find primary sources. Those people are not being as helpful. Though try consider educating them on more responsible tool use as well? | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | To clarify my thoughts on this, I'm not against using AI to research/hone your arguments. It's no different to using Wikipedia or googling. I don't think that's what this new HN guideline is against either. What I object is the AI writing your comments for you. I want to engage with other human beings, not the bot-mediated version of them. | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > To clarify my thoughts on this, I'm not against using AI to research/hone your arguments. It's no different to using Wikipedia or googling. > I don't think that's what this new HN guideline is against either. This is actually how many commenters here are interpreting it, though - and that's what I'm pushing back against. They are actively advocating against using LLMs this way. I don't have the LLM write the comment for me. I (sometimes) give it my draft, along with all the parents to the root, and get feedback. I look for specific things (Am I being too argumentative? Am I invoking a logical fallacy? Is it obvious I misinterpreted a comment that I'm replying to? Is my comment confusing? etc). Adding things like (Am I violating an HN guideline?) are fair game. Earlier today I wrote a lot of comments without using the LLM's feedback. In one particular thread I repeatedly misunderstood the original context of the discussion and wasted people's time. I reposted my draft to the LLM and it alerted me of my problematic comment. Had I used it originally, I would have saved a lot of people time. Incidentally, since I started doing this (a few months ago), I've only edited my comment once or twice based on its feedback. Most of the time it just tells me my comment looks good. | |
| ▲ | yellowapple 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem is that there's a vast range of values between “using AI to research/hone your arguments” v. “AI writing your comments for you”, and between the rule itself and dang's various remarks on it, where exactly the rule draws the line is about as clear as mud. |
|
| |
| ▲ | BeetleB 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Yes, and AI won't help here. People will use AI to better break the guidelines. AI is a general purpose tool. People will use AI for multiple reasons, including yours. I'll wager, though, that your use case is much more challenging to do than mine, and that my use case will dominate in number. > HN is more like talking than writing. Says you. Many disagree. > And LLMs don't help you write well, they help you sound like a clone, which is unwanted. Patently false on both counts. Sorry, you're cherry picking and not addressing the part of my comment that discusses this. > Imagine if your friend AI-edited their speech in real-time as they talked to you. When a conversation is heated (as it occasionally is on HN), I actually would rather he AI-edit in real time - provided that the output reflects what he intended. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I'll wager, though, that your use case is much more challenging to do than mine, and that my use case will dominate in number. I don't know how comparatively challenging, I only know your use case is now (fortunately!) against HN rules. > Patently false on both counts. Sorry, you're cherry picking and not addressing the part of my comment that discusses this. It's not false. It's one of the major reasons people have come to dislike AI written comments and articles. It all ends up sounding the same. > When a conversation is heated (as it occasionally is on HN), I actually would rather he AI-edit in real time - provided that the output reflects what he intended. In real life? Sounds like a fucking dystopia. But everyone is free to choose the hell they want to live in. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | tonyarkles 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Do you really need an automated tool to tell you whether you're breaking common sense guidelines? I say this on behalf of all of my neurospicy friends… sometimes, yes. Especially having taken a look at the whole list of guidelines, I definitely am friends with people who would could struggle to determine whether a given comment fits or not. |
|
| |
| ▲ | BeetleB 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People who are particular about spelling do not want to write misspelled words! It's not about whether you/others will tolerate it. I have my standards, and I hold to them. I personally don't use an LLM to spellcheck (browser spellcheck works fine), but I see no problem with someone using an LLM to point out spelling errors. And while I don't complain about others' spelling errors, I sure do notice them. And if someone writes a long wall of text as one giant paragraph that has lots of spelling/grammatical issues, chances are very high I won't read it. Some people write very poorly by almost any standard. If an LLM helps the person write better, I'm all for it. There's a world of a difference between copy/pasting from the LLM and asking it for feedback. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I have my standards, and I hold to them. Spellcheckers exist, you don't need an AI to change your voice. Also, if you have standards, you can always train yourself to spell better! | | |
| ▲ | BeetleB 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Spellcheckers exist, you don't need an AI to change your voice. How is using an AI to spell check changing my voice? Yes, thank you - I know spellcheckers exist, as my comment clearly states. The amusing thing is that an LLM who had access to the thread would have alerted you to a basic error you're making. > Also, if you have standards, you can always train yourself to spell better! "You can always ..." is not an argument against alternatives. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Calm down. You're getting defensive, but it's not warranted. I'm not attacking you. > The amusing thing is that an LLM who had access to the thread would have alerted you to a basic error you're making. I didn't make the "basic error" of assuming you didn't know spellcheckers existed. I was stressing that since spellcheckers already exist, you don't need an AI assisting your comments-writing. Much basic, non-style-altering alternatives exist and are better. > "You can always ..." is not an argument against alternatives. The argument I'm making is that if you care so much about standards you can always hone them yourself instead of taking the lazy way out of having an AI write for you. Alternatively, if you're lazy then your standards aren't too high. And yes, this is an argument against the alternative you're suggesting. | | |
| ▲ | yellowapple 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The argument I'm making is that if you care so much about standards you can always hone them yourself instead of taking the lazy way out of having an AI write for you. It's pretty clear that in this case the use of AI is not a matter of laziness, but rather quality/consistency assurance. I use code formatters not because I'm too lazy to indent code myself, but because it helps guarantee that it's formatted consistently. I use a stud finder when mounting things to walls not because I'm too lazy to do the “knock on the wall” trick, but because the stud finder is more precise and reliable at it. I don't use AI to edit my comments, but if I did, it would be not because I'm too lazy to check for all the things I want to avoid putting in my comments, but as an extra layer of assurance on top of what I've already trained myself to do. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | vova_hn2 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think that people subconsciously perceive grammatically correct and stylistically appropriate writing as more authoritative. And author is perceived as smarter and/or better educated person. At least that was the case before LLMs became a thing, now I'm not sure anymore. | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Obvious spelling mistakes are usually ignored, but there are certain types of writing mistakes that really trigger the type of people that frequent HN. For example, use "literally" for exaggeration rather than in the original meaning of the word and you'll likely trigger somebody. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | I never seen this, unless "literally" really clashed with the intent of the comment (as in, it changed the meaning). It's against the HN guidelines to focus on punctuation, spelling, etc, as long as the comment is understood. And, in any case, it's now against the guidelines to write using an AI :) | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Perhaps not for the word "literally", but you've never seen anybody make a pedantic correction about word usage? | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | To be clear, I've seen it in the wild, but not here where it's discouraged to pick on words instead of focusing on the substance of what's being said. | | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Here's a better example. Use "a few bad apples" wrong, and you'll likely get a response. A few bad apples will cause the entire barrel to spoil rapidly, so a few bad apples is a big deal. But it's often used to say the opposite, that a few bad apples isn't a big deal. | |
| ▲ | bryanlarsen 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wish I had posted a better example, but I couldn't recall anything at the moment and still can't. It's usually a more interesting complaint than the old man shaking fist at clouds of the usage of the word literally. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | OK, but let's dig deeper. Would you prefer to be corrected on some logical fallacy/mistake you made in your argument, by another human being (and yes, maybe get slightly upset about it, we're human beings after all), or have both sides present bot-mediated iron-clad comments, like operators sparring with robots? I prefer the raw, flawed human version. Even if, yes, I make a silly, avoidable mistake, or get upset, or make you upset in the heat of the argument. Maybe when I cool down I will have learned something. I don't want flawless robotic arguments. I want human beings. (Fuck, that last bit sounded like an AI-ism, but I promise it's me, a human!). |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | cogman10 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've been hit by spelling/grammar noise once or twice. Those are usually downvoted and/or flagged. | | |
| ▲ | everybodyknows 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Typos like an/as, of/or, an/and waste the reader's time. That some care be taken to avoid them is no more than common courtesy. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | dgacmu 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Would anyone notice if you spell-checked or got narrow feedback about grammar? No. I'm not dang, but perhaps a very reasonable interpretation of the rules is: If the AI is generating the words, don't. If it tells you something about your words and you choose to revise them without just copying words the AI output, it's still your words. (As an experiment, I took that paragraph and threw it into gemini to ask for spell and grammar checking. It yelled at me completely incorrectly about saying "I'm not dang". Of its 4 suggestions, only 1 was correct, and the other 3 would have either broken what I was trying to say or reduced the presence of my usual HN comment voice. So while I said the above, perhaps I'm wrong and even listening to the damn box about grammar is a bad idea.) That said, I often post from my phone and have somewhat frequent little glitches either from voice recognition or large clumsy thumbs, and nobody has ever seemed to care except me when I notice them a few minutes after the edit button goes away. |