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rramadass a day ago

Alan Kay himself said this quote is taken out-of-context and so people need to stop repeating it - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11799963

vanderZwan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The quote makes much more sense as an in-joke between two like-minded people, because Alan Kay isn't exactly humble himself nor does he avoid provocative statements.

And speaking as a Dutch man, given the kind of humor we have I'm pretty certain Dijkstra appreciated a good roast like that too.

rramadass 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The actual context is in this video where Kay makes the comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47328782

vanderZwan 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Have seen that presentation, but that still does not give the full context. At least, I don't think it is obvious from the video alone whether this remark was a friendly jab between friends, or whether it was a stereotypical vicious academic back-and-forth between to big names in a field.

rramadass 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think this is the sequence that led to the quote.

1) People are miffed with Dijkstra due to his abrasive style.

2) John Backus has a back-and-forth with Dijkstra where he calls him arrogant.

3) The community knows of the above.

4) Dijkstra writes paper comparing Computer Science approaches in Europe vs. USA in his usual sharp style.

5) American Scientists perceive the above as dissing them and take umbrage.

6) Alan Kay writes a paper rebutting Dijkstra's paper pointing out that most of the Software is written on the American side.

7) Alan Kay then disses Dijkstra with this quote half-in-annoyance/half-tongue-in-cheek.

justin66 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and so people need to stop repeating it

That would seem to be your sentiment, not his, based on the link you shared. Rather than being censorious he shared a nice story on the matter.

rramadass 21 hours ago | parent [-]

No, it is not my sentiment nor am i being censorious.

It can be inferred from Kay's own words. He probably was just poking fun in a tongue-in-cheek manner often seen amongst larger-than-life figures.

John Backus called Edsger Dijkstra arrogant since the latter was highly critical of the former's research in functional programming (not the substance but the hyping). Kay was probably riffing off of that.

The problem is that a lot of noobs/kids/oldies-who-should-know-better often dismiss(!) Dijkstra's work because of this silly quote. Thus in this case, a "nice story" is actually an obstacle to people reading Dijkstra.

justin66 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Kay was probably riffing off of that.

You don't need to hypothesize about all this, to put things in their proper context you could listen to the speech where he famously said it.

https://youtu.be/aYT2se94eU0?t=324

rramadass 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, i knew of the video. That somewhat proves the point i make here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47331352

People only focus on that phrase since it makes a nice "talking point" and ignore all the other interesting things from Kay's talk. For example; i never knew that most of Euler's proofs were wrong w.r.t. rigorous approach as defined today!

messe 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It can be inferred from Kay's own words. He probably was just poking fun in a tongue-in-cheek manner often seen amongst larger-than-life figures.

...is that not obvious from the original quote? Maybe it's a cultural difference (I'm from Ireland), but that's how I've always interpreted and it's never occurred to me that people took it seriously or as anything other than tongue in cheek.

rramadass 14 hours ago | parent [-]

The problem is with folks who don't know/have never read (seriously that is) Dijkstra.

For example, every time somebody posts something about Dijkstra on HN/etc. somebody will trot out this silly quote and then others pile on (since it requires no effort) and derail any interesting conversation.

It is human nature to have an opinion on everything and mediocrity often takes great pleasure in tearing down the greats (i mean the true ones) in order to soothe their own egos (since they know they don't measure up) i.e. "see? the great one is as flawed/mundane as us and i am showing him up".

And Dijkstra was Dutch who are famously known to be blunt which is often perceived as arrogance by others :-)

masfuerte a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Weirdly, that ten-year-old Alan Kay comment is shown as "1 day ago" by HN.

dang 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Oof - not sure what happened there but it was probably a fat-fingered thing from me merging today's threads. Fixed now. Thanks for the heads-up!