| ▲ | dizzy9 5 hours ago |
| Some of us are old enough to remember when the RIAA sued children for downloading Metallica albums on filesharing networks. They sued for $100,000 per song, an absurd amount when you consider that even stealing a physical album would amount only to around $1 per song. What was bizarre was that courts took the figure seriously, even if they typically settled cases for around $3,000, still around 30x actual damages. The legal maximum was $150,000 per infringement: when a staffer leaked an early cut of the Wolverine movie, the studio could only sue for that much. |
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| ▲ | mikkupikku 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Remember that Metallica band members played an active driving role in those lawsuits against their own underage fans. It wasn't just the RIAA / record company organizations behaving cruelly, it was Metallica themselves. Fuck Metallica. |
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| ▲ | Hamuko 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Not that surprising considering that James Hetfield has no qualms about his music being used for literal torture. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/19/usa.guantanamo | |
| ▲ | roegerle 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | how they were able to recover from that is beyond me. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They didn't. I haven't bought a Metallica album since the black album. That was a decade earlier, because everything since sucked, but as I got older I thought about maybe expanding my tastes. I avoided Metallica specifically for their disrespect of their fans. | | |
| ▲ | DaSHacka 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Did they not? Seems like they're still quite popular, and I knew people in HS (for reference, late 2010s to early '20s) that were big into the band. Additionally, looking at Google Trends[0], it seems they peaked in 21st-century online popularity in 2008 and had another notable uptick in 2017. I think a lot of us want the assholes to have suffered real consequences for their behavior, but want is different from did. [0] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=%... |
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| ▲ | iririririr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | coreyburnsdev 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | one of their best songs is "don't tread on me" | |
| ▲ | budsniffer95o an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why are all forums inundated with this ridiculous nonsense? They are "MAGA"? How so? Are people who follow MAGA typically anti-piracy or something? Bizarre. | | |
| ▲ | garyfirestorm an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The ideology has an inherent toxicity to it, along with a self own, doubling down on mistakes that would harm you and the others in longer run, embracing silly ideas and a general disregard for niceties.
Would have been nice if they didn’t hurt their own fans like that could be simply phrased as ‘being MAGA’ | |
| ▲ | throw10920 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It [calling anything you don't like "maga"] is political in-group signalling of a tribal ideology that also serves the dual purpose of destroying the meaning of language. Categorically inappropriate for HN - flag it and move on. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Killed Napster and forced them overseas to create one of the most toxic streaming platforms for music the world has ever seen. Spotify. Sean Parker used to be cool… |
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| ▲ | magicalhippo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| At least it brought us some fun Flash animations as a result, in the form of Metallicops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb_jLAisPzk |
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| ▲ | tzs 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You are off a bit on the numbers. First, though, the RIAA suits were not for downloading. The suits were for distribution. Here is how their enforcement actions generally went. 1. They would initially send a letter asking for around $3 per song that was being shared, threatening to sue if not paid. This typically came to a total in the $2-3k range. There were a few where the initial request was for much more such as when the person was accused of an unusually high volume of intentional distribution. But for the vast majority of people who were running file sharing apps in order to get more music for themselves rather than because they wanted to distribute music it averaged in that $2-3k range. 2. If they could not come to an agreement and actually filed a lawsuit they would pick maybe 10-25 songs out of the list of songs the person was sharing (typically around a thousand) to actually sue over. The range of possible damages in such a suit is $750-30000 per work infringed, with the court (judge and jury) picking the amount [1]. NOTE: it is per "work infringed", not per infringement. The number of infringements will be one of the factors the court will consider when deciding where in that $750-30000 range to go. 3. There would be more settlement offers before the lawsuit actually went to trial. These would almost always be in the $200-300 per song range, which since the lawsuit was only over maybe a dozen or two of the thousand+ songs the person had been sharing usually came out to the same ballpark as the settlement offers before the suit was filed. Almost everyone settled at that point, because they realized that (1) they had no realistic chance of winning, (2) they had no realistic chance of proving they were were an "innocent infringer", (3) minimal statutory damages then of $750/song x 10-15 songs was more than the settlement offer, and (4) on top of that they would have not only their attorney fees but in copyright suits the loser often has to pay the winner's attorney fees. 4. Less than a dozen cases actually reached trial, and most of those settled during the trial for the same reasons in the above paragraph that most people settled before trial. Those were in the $3-15k range with most being around $5k. [1] If the defendant can prove they are in "innocent infringer", meaning they didn't know they were infringing and had no reason to know that, then the low end is lowered to $200. If the plaintiff can prove that the infringement was "willful", meaning the defendant knew it was infringement and deliberately did it, the high end is raised to $150k. |
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| ▲ | ohbleek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So, does this mean that people can simply argue in court now (if they were to be prosecuted for downloading media via bittorrent) that it is fair use if they used it to train a local model on their machine? |
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| ▲ | yorwba 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People could always simply argue in court that their torrenting was free use. If you're just some nobody representing yourself instead of an expensive lawyer acting on behalf of a large company, maybe the judge will even try to be extra nice when he explains why the argument doesn't hold water. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It has been often said that a man who represents himself in court has a fool for a client. | | | |
| ▲ | _heimdall 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Unless I'm mistaken, the relevant copyright laws aren't limited to enforcement when money exchanged hands. | | |
| ▲ | moron4hire 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, but it does matter how much money the alleged infringer has. Property law is mostly concerned with protecting the rich from the poor, so when a rich person violates the property of a poor person, the courts can't allow the inversion of purpose and will create something called a "legal fiction," which is basically the kind of bending-over-backwards that my children do to try to claim that they didn't break the rules, actually, and if you look at it in a certain way they were actually following the rules, actually. | | |
| ▲ | gzread 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This sort of thing used to be heavily downvoted on HN. How the site has changed in the last year. | | |
| ▲ | moron4hire 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, the VC-backed startup ecosystem that was the origin of this website does rely on propagating the myth that we live in a meritocracy to ensure it has enough cheap labor to build prototypes that its anointed few can acquire at rock bottom pricing. But we've been through enough cycles of it now that we've started seeing the patterns. |
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| ▲ | thisislife2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sadly, in many courts, when it comes to the corporate and the government, the judges rule on the axiom, "Show me your lawyer first, and I will rule, rather than show me the law, and I will rule". | |
| ▲ | chongli an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | maybe the judge will even try to be extra nice when he explains why the argument doesn't hold water. Many judges take a dim view of expensive lawyers trying to pull the wool over their eyes with sophisticated but fallacious arguments. You have to deal with a lot of BS to be a long-standing judge, so it seems like resistance to BS may be selected for among judges. | | |
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| ▲ | bsenftner 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Of course not. It is just yet another example of a 7-8 figure expensive attorney and their billions dollar corporation wasting everyone' time, tax payers dollars, and demonstrating that the law applies to us and not them. I expect them to just stop showing up in court in time. What can the court do when these people own the people that write the laws? | | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | There really should be some type of panel for frivolous legal arguments. If they are used by corporation all of the lawyers, leadership and shareholders involved are thrown into jail. Could even get jury on this and have them give majority opinion. | | |
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| ▲ | ufocia 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Your memory may be failing you. The "maxima" you cite still exist, but they are merely statutory damages provisions. In other words, the plaintiffs can obtain such damages without proof of actual loss, i.e. strict liability. If the plaintiffs succeed in pricing actual damages beyond this level, they can obtain them. |
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| ▲ | jazz9k 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Children can commit crimes too. It's funny, because now in the age of AI, many of the people that support piracy are now trying to stop AI companies from doing the same thing. |
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| ▲ | bravetraveler 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 'Same thing', hah. This was edited out, but I'm quoting it anyway: > I should trot out all of the justifications here. I'll start: personal use instead of profit. Certainly a difference, not convinced justification is required or even advisable. | |
| ▲ | mchaver 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Children are afforded more lenience in sane societies (before the law and in social contexts) because they are still developing and not as well socialized/experienced as adults. I assume most pro-piracy people support personal use and not commercial use of content. | |
| ▲ | themafia 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We support copyright reform not piracy. The reason we do is because corporate giants have weaponized the system for their own ends and not for our useful promotion of the arts and sciences. So.. I don't think it's appropriate for billion dollar companies to abuse copyrighted authored material for their own profit streams. They have the money. They can either pay or not use the material. | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A child stole a candy bar from my shop, time to bankrupt his whole working class family! ^ sociopathic legalists really do think this way. | | | |
| ▲ | cindyllm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | functionmouse 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh stop being disingenuous. |
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| ▲ | b112 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Way to leave out context! By no means were they suing for downloading alone. They were suing for sharing while downloading, and seeding after, and as "early seeders" they helped thousands obtain copies. Right or wrong, it was absolutely not about just downloading. It wasn't about taking one copy. In their eyes, it was about copyng then handing out tens of thousands of copies for free. Again, not saying it was right. However, please don't provide an abridged account, slanted to create a conclusion in the reader. |
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| ▲ | misnome 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did you even read the title of the article? This is exactly what they are claiming is fair use. | | |
| ▲ | jazzyjackson 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Parent post brought in the comparison to stealing a CD, but torrenting isn't just taking a copy, it's distributing to others, hence the absurd damages claims | |
| ▲ | tzs 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They are replying to what a comment said about past file sharing cases. |
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