| ▲ | TCXO Failure Analysis(serd.es) |
| 61 points by zdw 3 days ago | 22 comments |
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| ▲ | ACCount37 an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| A lot of "exposed bonded die" packages caution against using ultrasonic cleaning. This is especially true for TCXOs, which also have the entire loose crystal in them on top of the controller die, and for MEMS mics, which are designed to be sensitive to vibration. But it's also true for things like common CMOS image sensors, which are "exposed die", but not mechanically sensitive otherwise. Bond wires that are hanging midair instead of being pinned in place by package epoxy don't vibe with ultrasonic cleaning methods. The risks are usually small, mind. Which is why prototyping teams and repair shops often use ultrasonic cleaning regardless. But in actual mass manufacturing, you really don't want to risk that extra 1% failure rate. So you either ask the vendors for "safe" values and dance around those energies and frequencies, or avoid ultrasonics altogether. |
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| ▲ | superxpro12 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | "...dont vibe with ultrasonic cleaning...." Quite to the contrary, they DO vibe. Destructively :\ |
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| ▲ | myrmidon 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| On the origin of OXCO (for oven controlled crystal oscillator): The base abbreviation is "Xtal" (for crystal) and predates modern electronics by quite a bit (was already used before 1900 in geology etc). The author linking this to Xmas (indirectly, "Christ") via the the greek Chi (Χ) is very likely correct. In electronics this weird abbreviation (X for crystal) is further helped by the fact that "C" is completely taken by "capacitor" (an even more important passive component). |
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| ▲ | ACCount37 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Amusingly, "crystal oscillator" can be both "X" and "Y" in schematics. "X" because "xtal", and "Y" because of the distinct shape of a tuning fork. | | |
| ▲ | SAI_Peregrinus 40 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Even more amusingly, only low-frequency crystals (very often 32.768kHz) are tuning-fork cut, high-frequency resonators use other shapes. Pedantically most of them aren't crystal oscillators, merely crystal resonators. Oscillators begin oscillating on their own when a DC voltage is applied, they usually are 3-pin or 4-pin devices with power input & oscillating outputs. 2-pin crystal resonators merely act as high-Q filters in an oscillator circuit, they still need other components to drive the oscillation. |
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| ▲ | rmast an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interesting how the depackaging was done - curious what the mill setup was looked like. It seems like achieving .001” on manual mills isn’t uncommon; which would be about 25 micrometers, so in line with the depth of passes that were being taken here. I can see how the magnified view of the part would be helpful. |
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| ▲ | showerst an hour ago | parent [-] | | A thou on any decent mill is no problem. Given the teeny tiny endmill the author was using, I suspect they were using a small mill with a very fast spindle. Maybe something like a Taig or a Sherline. Edit -- I see on another post the author has a Sherline 5400 mini mill. |
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| ▲ | myself248 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've always been cautioned against ultrasonic cleaning of boards that have crystal oscillators, and indeed it's in most XO datasheets. I've also heard that one shouldn't trim the leads of a through-hole XO before soldering it into the board, since the mechanical shock of the lead breaking can ring the whole package and similarly shake it apart. I'm curious if anyone here has seen that in practice! |
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| ▲ | Aurornis 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > I've also heard that one shouldn't trim the leads of a through-hole XO before soldering it into the board, since the mechanical shock of the lead breaking can ring the whole package and similarly shake it apart. I'm curious if anyone here has seen that in practice! I’ve never put a through hole crystal into production so I can’t say anything about this conjecture. However the larger surface mount crystals are not hard to hand solder if you get a package with side wettable flanks and make the pads reasonably large. It’s something I’d recommend considering. | |
| ▲ | the__alchemist 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I went down this rabbit hole a few years ago, and couldn't find an actionable answer on if this is OK or not. Sounded like "No, you shouldn't", but almost every PCB I've designed (or used?) has at least one, and I know ultrasonic cleaning is a thing, so I'm not sure how to reconcile these. | | |
| ▲ | ACCount37 an hour ago | parent [-] | | There is no single answer. It depends on the exact components, their sensitivities, frequencies and energies used, and how much failure risk are you willing to take. Rule of thumb: one simple xtal per board in small manufacturing runs (4 digits or less) means you're fine. The larger your manufacturing runs are, and the more sensitive components you have on your boards, the more careful you want to be. Components can easily make the difference between 0.2% failure rate and 2% failure rate, and that 2% failure rate bites when you push units by hundreds of thousands. Of course, there's always a chance of you getting a perfect match of the exact intensity and frequency used on a given manufacturing line, which you didn't know, with what happens to kill your specific components at a disproportionate rate, which you also didn't know. But it's a pretty low chance. Feeling lucky? Because yes, it's not actually worth the engineering/support effort for you, your manufacturer and your part vendor to actually put the thinking cap on and characterize all of that shit for a typical low volume run. So luck it is. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh, that's a good one, I can see how that would put a lot of g's on the package. I think this will be a factor depending on the weight of the total assembly. If that weight is significant it will dampen the shockwave. |
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| ▲ | namibj 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The divide by two is to get the quartz small enough to fit that package. |
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| ▲ | superxpro12 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Is there some kind of inverse relationship between resonant frequency and crystal size? |
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| ▲ | kentrf 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interesting writeup! Today I learned about TCXO. If anyone else are curious, that component cost about $2 per piece. |
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| ▲ | the__alchemist 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yea! Useful if you need precise timing under temp swings. I use them for UAS LoRa radios. Def more expensive than a normal XO! | | |
| ▲ | flyinghamster 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It's also something you want to look for if you're buying an SDR. Getting one with a TCXO will eliminate frequency drift, and the better-made SDRs will also have little or no need for frequency correction. | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But cheaper than OCXO and far less power consumption too. Also (much) less stable. | | |
| ▲ | galangalalgol 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Compensating for the temperature will never be as accurate as actually controlling it (O is for ovenized). I keep reading about chip scale atomic clocks coming down in price but I've yet to see them as the oscillator in anything mass produced. | | |
| ▲ | rasz an hour ago | parent [-] | | When 2G started being decommissioned ebay was suddenly flooded with super cheap rubidium frequency standards from parted out base stations. |
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| ▲ | jacquesm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's a very cute domain name. Thank you whoever wrote this up and posted it, I'm in the process of building something that has a crystal on it and I did not realize this was a risk. |
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| ▲ | Neywiny 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Can't comment on the wire bonding quality but yes you're not supposed to sonic wash anything with an oscillator. This includes ultra and mega sonic. I had always thought it was because you could damage the crystal or mems structures, so color me surprised to see this failure mode, though there still could be a shift in frequency that the scoping wasn't able to see. I tried looking at an exemplar ECS tcxo datasheet and didn't see anything in there about washing which is surprising but it also doesn't say not to crush it with a hammer so maybe it was assumed. That's bad on them. As for SMA to 0.1" headers: yes these are very cursed. But RF designers love putting SMAs for every connector on an eval board (power, enable, whatever) and those come in handy. |