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keiferski 18 hours ago

Many prominent tech and science leaders have been disparaging philosophy for decades now. Not surprising that in the absence of any serious ethical thought, “make money = good” is the default position.

refurb 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your opinion seems to suggest that unless someone has the same moral view as you they must not have any morals at all?

What if their morals are “I am not responsible for how my products are used?”

You may not agree, but it’s a valid ethical stance to hold.

keiferski 13 hours ago | parent [-]

No, that isn’t what my comment suggests at all, on any level.

I don’t think you can have intelligent ethical opinions if you disparage and ignore the field that studies ethics (philosophy.)

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I think there are definitely many positions with which I disagree, but are nonetheless well-thought through and coherent.

But it seems pretty clear that the people making these decisions haven’t done the work of thinking it through, and are instead just trying to maximize money. That’s my claim, at least.

LunaSea 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

To me this reads the same way some religious people believe that it is not possible for atheists to have morals because morals come from the Bible.

refurb 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> No, that isn’t what my comment suggests at all, on any level. I don’t think you can have intelligent ethical opinions if you disparage and ignore the field that studies ethics (philosophy.)

You're not suggesting that, but then put up your own requirements for someone's ethics to be "valid". So in the end you are filtering others ethical choices by your own requirements.

And your logic seems to work backwards: someone does something you disagree with based on your personal ethical view -> assume they aren't well thought out

keiferski 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My requirements for someone's ethical opinions to be "valid" are that they don't criticize the field of ethics as useless. I guess that is a "requirement" I have, but it's a pretty nitpicking, useless distinction to make.

If someone criticizes the French language, but doesn't speak a word of French, sorry, but I don't have much respect for their opinion on French.

And no, I don't "assume they aren't well thought out," because many of these people have explicitly said philosophy is a waste of time.

financltravsty 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

One of my best friends is a philosophy grad, and another is a very intelligent financier. What we've come to realize is that speaking and writing and making arguments is fruitless. You either have had the embodied experiences to recognize a statement is directionally correct -- to various magnitudes -- or you don't.

No amount of words will change that.

It is my experience -- after seeing the quality of thinking from those philosophically trained (I am not) -- that learning philosophy is learning how to think, and by extension figuring out for oneself what is capital g Good.

Morals and ethics are different and you conflate them. That is the crux of your confusion. Someone can understand morality inherently without ever thinking about it; but ethics requires actual intentional thought over years and years of reflecting on lived experience. What is good for you and your small circle can be grasped intuitively, but to grasp what is good "at scale" must be reasoned about. Without having seriously grappled with this, one is liable to have simplistic views, and in many cases hold views that have already been trodden through and whose "holes" have been exposed and new routes taken in unveiling ethics.

Without seriously having interfaced with it, it's like talking to someone about the exercise science when all they know is do steroids, lift weight, and eat. Sure, that works, but it lacks nuance and almost no thought has gone into it.

Anyway, this is tiring. Philosophical discussions are not something to do with strangers. It requires intimacy and is a deeply personal conversation one should have with those close to them and explore together.

booleandilemma 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Excellent point. Philosophy (really anything not math-related) is seen as a waste of time by most people I know in tech. You end up getting a bunch of smart but unethical or misguided people. Engineering types end up being used as pawns in wider political games. Look at all the terrorists who are engineers, for example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/magazine/12FOB-IdeaLab-t....

WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

nicoburns 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Would you consider being a contract killer (i.e. a hitman) ethical? What about being a creator of CSAM? Because those are both examples making money by providing others with what they want. And if we followed free market principles to their logical extreme then both of those would be allowed.

I think most people would agree that this would not be even remotely ethical. Nor would it lead to higher living standards than a more restricted market economy.

WalterBright 5 hours ago | parent [-]

A fundamental requirement for free markets is the absence of use of force or fraud. Another is that it applies only to legally consenting adults.

Both of your examples are not free market examples.

keiferski 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sometimes I really don’t know how to reply to comments like these. Because they either seem to completely misunderstand the basic premise of my comment, or they deliberately focus on some tangential thing in order to make some trollish point. But I’ll reply here, and just assume my comment was somehow unclear.

Do you genuinely think that putting money above any other value is an ethical way to operate in the world? I certainly don’t, virtually no ethical theory does, and the vast majority of people don’t either.

This is not saying that making money is inherently a bad thing, but that placing it above every other value without question is definitely a bad thing, or at least a careless and thoughtless one.

To use your example: all sorts of things are in demand but unquestionably make the world worse. Does the fact that people are willing to pay for propaganda or chemical weapons or X other negative thing somehow mean that facilitating their sale is ethical? I really don’t understand the position.

I suppose there are some people out there who seriously have studied ethics and think making money is the ultimate good. It doesn’t seem like a serious position to me.

But I don’t think that’s become the default position because of serious analysis, but rather the total lack of it. Which is what my comment was about: when you refuse to engage in serious philosophical thought about something, you’re just going to revert to base values like the acquisition of money and power, or some variant of that which your local system is optimizing for.

WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent [-]

> Do you genuinely think that putting money above any other value is an ethical way to operate in the world?

I don't see how that follows from what I wrote.

keiferski 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Then I don’t understand the point of your initial comment or what you’re trying to say.

pawkaman84 14 hours ago | parent [-]

He was trying to say that "making money in a free-market" is fundamentally linked to creating value for someone. It wasn't the 'money' word that you should have focused on, but the 'value'.

On average this way of creating value bottoms-up has undoubtedly produced the largest human flourishing in the history of our species. It has unlocked human creativity and has lifted millions of people from poverty. It is the best system we have been yet able to create. If you disagree - point me to an alternative (even if theoretical).

Of course, as in the case of averages, there is variance. Sure, greed, illegal money making is bad, but the total net benefit is overwhelmingly positive.

I think your blind spot is that you implicitly attribute no ethical value to 'money making'. For you they're disconnected. In fact, it's the oppositve - there is a lot of ethics in money making.

keiferski 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Here’s what I don’t get, and why these comments irritate me. They are just opportunities for someone to inject their ideological arguments about something that has little to do with the actual comment.

I didn’t say anything about capitalism being a bad system, nor did I say making money is inherently bad.

I said in the absence of ethical study, making money is treated as a default good. It seems pretty obvious to me that it isn’t a default good.

I’m completely uninterested in arguing about whether the profit motive has led to good societal outcomes, because a) in general I agree with that and b) it has literally nothing to do with my comment.

My original comment was just lamenting that tech leaders don’t study ethics, and therefore they just default to thinking that making money is always a good thing, no matter the consequences, no matter what values get ignored. In many situations, making money does indeed lead to good ethical situations. But my comment is about them not even bothering to ask that question in the first place. That’s all.

WalterBright 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> no matter what values get ignored

Free markets require no force or fraud, and legal consenting adults.

What values being ignored are you referring to?

shafyy 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

To add to keiferski's excellent comments: There is no such thing a truly free market. Neoliberalism is just an excuse to not care about things that stand in the way of people making more money or gaining more power.

This wealth we have built was not built on a totally free market (whatever that means), but much more social form of capitalism. The countries where there is the least povery and highest standards of living are countries that have a big social welfare state, such as the Norics.

WalterBright 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> There is no such thing a truly free market.

Nothing human is perfect. However, history shows us that the more free market an economy is, the more prosperous it is. It doesn't have to be "truly free" to be effective.

In contrast, whenever socialism is tried and it fails, socialists describe it as "not true socialism". Since there is also no such thing as true socialism, the more "true" a socialism is, the more it fails.