| ▲ | seydor a day ago |
| is it not a conflict of interest if you facilitate the legislation of tarrifs that you knew are illegal? |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | next [-] |
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| ▲ | gruez a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >if you facilitate the legislation of tarrifs that you knew are illegal? Did they know it was illegal? Any more than say, the Biden administration "knew" that forgiving student loans were illegal? |
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| ▲ | anon7000 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They literally spent a decent chunk of money spinning up a line of business that could only make money if the tariffs were illegal. | | |
| ▲ | garyfirestorm a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Did they know it was illegal it doesnt have to be black and white. they knew enough to spin up a business that when it is overturned they could make money... which means they knew the probability was high. | |
| ▲ | hammock a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st a day ago | parent [-] | | Insurance company deal: if you pay us $X now, and then Y happens, we will make you whole, even though that cost may very well exceed $X. Lutnick deal: we pay you $X' now, and if Y' happens, we collect everything which will substantively exceed $X'. This is not insurance, its closer to shorting stocks. Oh, one other thing: the insurance company has essentially nothing to do with Y at all, in the sense that they have no control over Y and generally speaking no involvement in it (think: accidents, floods, storms, fires). By contrast Lutnick is the Secretary of Commerce of the United States of America. | | |
| ▲ | hammock 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Lutnick deal: if we pay you $X now, and then Y happens, you will make us the whole refund, even though that windfall may very well exceed $X. Insurance company deal: you pay us $X' now, and if Y' happens, we pay for everything which may substantively exceed $X'. | | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I have no idea what the point of this is, since it just restates what I wrote, and reinforces the point that the Lutnick deal is nothing like "insurance". |
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| ▲ | seydor a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | even if they were not sure 100%, the fact that introducing the legislation is connected to him making money is a conflict of interest. | |
| ▲ | nkassis a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's not really the comparable here, you need to find a person with vested interest in the outcome of the student loan forgiveness program.* Someone that was working within the agency responsible for the program and actively was in the discussions where the legality was discussed. Then made a scheme to financially get rewarded. Not only that used his son as a way to create the illusion of separation. * And not just a borrower that wouldn't be anywhere similar to this level of conflict. |
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| ▲ | danielmarkbruce a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| No, it's not a conflict of interest. It's perhaps dumb, or morally bad, or several other things. |
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| ▲ | cj a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > dumb, or morally bad This is easy to say in hindsight. There was a non-zero chance the decision could have went the other way. Also, companies aren't stupid. They don't buy insurance against things that are impossible. And the supreme court doesn't hear cases that are 100% obviously illegal. | | |
| ▲ | danielmarkbruce a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It was non-zero but close to zero. Companies don't want to deal with the headache for many things. It's not a given over what time horizon and how much work is involved to get the refund. It's totally sensible to sell the claim for 70 cents on the dollar for example. The supreme court absolutely hears cases that are obvious. They do it for several reasons - to create clarity, to narrow scope, to set a very clear precedent, and other reasons. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | It wasn’t “close to zero.” The Supreme Court split 6-3, with two Trump appointees voting against him. And the Federal Circuit, which is the most boring appellate court and not political at all, split 7-4, with two democratic appointees and two republican appointees voting to uphold the tariffs. This was a case that split both the liberal and conservative blocs. Obama’s former SG, Neal Katyal, went up there and argued for limiting presidential power over the economy. One of the justices quipped about the irony of Katyal’s major contribution to jurisprudence being revitalization of non-delegation doctrine, which has always been a conservative focus. | | |
| ▲ | danielmarkbruce a day ago | parent [-] | | Did you read the ruling? Read Clarence Thomas's dissent. It's not clear if he actually thinks what he wrote, or he just voted that way so he could write a dissent and make a strange legal point which probably doesn't carry water but sort of maybe could one day maybe. If it were close, I think he would have voted the other way. The folks on the court appear extremely inclined to take the other side on things just as a mental exercise, or to be able to write something on the record that they find interesting. It was close to zero. | | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Did you read the ruling? And the appellate court decision below? Thomas joined fully with Kavanaugh’s dissent. He wrote separately to articulate his view of the scope of non-delegation doctrine. He pointed out tariffs and taxes are different, in that tariffs implicate international relations, which is primarily within the province of the president. His analysis is extremely cogent. I was actually talking with my wife (we’re both Fed Soc people) that the administration should have pushed that angle much harder in the argument. Did you read the Federal Circuit en banc decision? You don’t get two Obama appointees to vote in favor of the Trump’s administrations unprecedented tariffs when the legal issue “isn’t close.” | | |
| ▲ | danielmarkbruce a day ago | parent [-] | | Yes, I read them all. And, surely you understand that many see using the due process clause to make his argument was a stretch. Just saying "his analysis is extremely cogent" doesn't make it so. |
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| ▲ | bumby a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think the issue is that someone working in public office had influence to affect that probability, and their relatives stood to gain from it. I don’t know enough about the ethics laws to know if it was strictly illegal, but it does create a smell. Suppose a county engineer has influence on whether oil drilling will be allowed (they don’t make policy but consult those who do), and prior to approval their relatives buy up a lot of land in the area. That engineer may not have been the deciding factor, but it seems like it runs afoul of ethics laws/standards. | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They weren't buying insurance. There's no insurance payout for the companies. They got a small amount of money in hand, and lost the chance to reclaim any of the tariff refund. That isn't insurance. Also, the SCOTUS is not a criminal court, it is a constitutional court. If a case is heard there, both sides have not agreed on "obvious illegality". That is unsuprising since in general one side (in this case, the administrative branch of the US Government) is being accused of illegal behavior - when it comes to constitutional rather than criminal questions, most parties do not just accept their guilt, but push as far as they can towards exoneration. Frequently, however to everybody else, the case concerns obvious illegality. | | |
| ▲ | gus_massa a day ago | parent [-] | | I agree, it's like "reverse insurance". I'm not sure what is the name. In insurance, you pay [-$10] to avoid a potencial negative risk [-$100]. Here you get money [+$10] instead of waiting for a potencial positive benefit [+$100]. Very slightly related https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mortgage | | |
| ▲ | tmtvl 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The term you're looking for is 'instant gratification'. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | jcranmer a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And the supreme court doesn't hear cases that are 100% obviously illegal. There is an argument in about two months' time as to whether or not the Birthright Citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment actually guarantees birthright citizenship in the US. There is no serious legal argument in favor of the interpretation being advanced by the Trump administration, that it does not. And yet here we are. |
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| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s sleazy because Lutnick’s son bet against the administration Lutnick was in, and against one of Trump’s signature policies. I’d be furious if I was Trump. | | |
| ▲ | leviathant a day ago | parent | next [-] | | You're upsetting the kind of people who leave their shopping carts in the parking lot instead of putting them away when they're done. | |
| ▲ | reskewed a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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