| ▲ | fulafel 14 hours ago |
| Does it include externalities (co2 emissions)? Increasing natural gas generation is of course disastrous policy with a major death toll from the climate disaster, there needs to be a rampdown of fossils use and production. |
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| ▲ | dathinab 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The current US government is systematically attacking anything which tries to "reduce the effects of climate change" and claims it's mostly all a scam. So no. But what probably also isn't included but should is environmental damage. Running low quality "temp." gas turbines non stop isn't without filters etc. isn't just bad for the climate, it's a air pollution which can directly affect anyone in it's path with not only increased chances for lounge cancer but also much more short term effects like asthma, and increased chances of asthma attacks ending deadly. Especially if the weather prevents easy dispersion (like it tends to do in winter). It's not that long ago (<80y) that the west had acid rains, and deadly smog accidents exactly from this kind of negligent shit. And if we look at Asia this is sometimes still a topic today (but has gotten much better compared to just ~20 years ago). |
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| ▲ | cucumber3732842 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Look in the mirror. No MBA pencil pusher wants to run an inefficient local turbine. It's just that the timeline and upper cost bound of doing that is less crap than having a "real utility" build more power at "real utility scale" and run you a wire because the latter is subject to all manner of delay and cost overrun. And there's no inherent physical or economic reason for it to be that way. We made it that way. The metaphorical local turbine is less worse specifically because people like you, saying the exact same things you're saying right now have saddled the "real utility scale" generation, and more importantly, the wire to the big industrial consumer who'd pay for it with all sorts of requirements. It costs tens of thousands of dollars of lawyers and engineering over years just to dump a concrete culvert in a ravine where it crosses a power line clearing and fill over the top, all because of the red tape. Say nothing of the cost to do all the legal paperwork to get the utility cut in the first place. Now multiply by every mile the wire has to go, add in the wires, etc, etc. For an industry that might boom and bust in 2, 5, 10yr dumping a fuel guzzling turbine in your parking lot at 5x the cost per watt starts to look pretty good. | | |
| ▲ | blitzar 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The MBA pencil pusher would pay a billion for 1 unit of electricity if it increased their market cap by a trillion. The margin is so fat and the percieved upside so great that 9 figure signing bonuses have been thrown around. Of course this will all change, but I doubt we will see tech companies opening power plants anytime soon with their associated balance sheet dragging 1% return on equity. |
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| ▲ | adrianN 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The only realistic way to "bear the cost" of CO2 emissions is paying for getting atmospheric carbon back into the ground. Right now that seems difficult to do at scale. The best way I know is making charcoal and burying it. Offsetting 1kWh needs on the order of 200g of wood turned into charcoal and buried. |
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| ▲ | nDRDY 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you suggesting we cut down trees and bury them to save the planet? For me, this idea marks the departure from reason and into crazytown. When our civilisation is excavated in 500 years, they are going to say we were as crazy as all of the others. | | |
| ▲ | adrianN 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I suggest it’s easier to leave to carbon in the ground in the first place. Carbon capture promises are unrealistic. But if you want to go with charcoal it’s probably best to get wood from coppicing. | |
| ▲ | harimau777 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable. As I understand it, the lumber industry has optimized the ability to grow massive amounts of fast growing pine as quickly as possible. So this isn't suggesting that we start clearcutting forests, it's suggesting that we start growing massive amounts of lumber with the explicit purpose of converting it to charcoal and burrying it. | | |
| ▲ | dathinab 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | it actually is a bad idea if you look into the details trees aren't just carbon, they are bio mass/nutrition and if you constantly remove bio mass you sooner or later run into issues (Which we already do in some places, e.g. when over using fields (see US dust storms), or with some managed Forrest getting increasingly more unstable not just because of warmed climate but also because of removing dead treas leading to an interruption of the natural nutrient recycling (and insect habitats) leading to Nutrition deficiency in the long run.) but we do have working carbon removal technologies, they are just not cheap hence why you want companies to pay for them, it gives them a huge reason to reduce emissions instead | |
| ▲ | nDRDY 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is such an unreasonable idea! Ignoring the loss of biomass (and the fact that there would be no way to implement this scheme without providing a very unwelcome financial incentive to cut down trees wherever they are found), you'd use as much CO2 in the machinery required to cut the trees down and dig a big hole! Unless you're suggesting we do it all by hand? In which case, the picture of a crazed, doomsday cult is complete. I suppose at least it involves less murder than the Aztecs and their sacrifices. |
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| ▲ | blitzar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | my read was ... we should cut down trees, burn them and bury the ashes to save the planet | | |
| ▲ | nDRDY 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's too controversial now, but one day we will recognise the current narrow-minded obsession with CO2 as the Western civilisation-wide doomsday cult that it is. |
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| ▲ | dathinab 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | the only crazy thing here is your comment completely ignoring all existing technologies related to that topic to spout obvious nonsense about "cutting down trees and burying them" (which would bind active bio mass which isn't a grate idea, also that won't produce oil anyway not that this is relevant for the discussion) various ways to reduce the carbon in the air do exist (and without trees) and the carbon can be both recycled for other usage and literally placed in the earth, too it is not rally a solution for climate change as it's very expensive to do. But this also makes it a good idea to "make companies pay for it" (at least if their carbon-equivalent output goes above a certain threshold). Because if they have the choice between very expensive carbon removal or reducing carbon output for a much cheaper price they will do the later; But in emergency/outlier situations they still can do the former, just at a very high price.). |
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| ▲ | erpellan 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Making charcoal releases CO2 though? How does that help with carbon capture? | | |
| ▲ | AngryData 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You don't HAVE to make it into charcoal, but it will take up way more volume if you don't and contains tons of volatiles like methane that will come out and may make the ground less stable to simply bury with dirt as it partially rots. Theoretically you could harness some of those volatiles for some energy production, but at the very least use those volatiles to heat the wood and make it charcoal for basically free. | | |
| ▲ | nDRDY 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Methane is a significantly more effective GHG than carbon dioxide! |
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| ▲ | adrianN 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Charcoal is like 80% carbon and the tree extracted it from the atmosphere. |
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| ▲ | warkdarrior 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are no such things as CO2 emissions in this administration. Your AI chatbots will be powered by clean coal and you'll enjoy it! |
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| ▲ | rob74 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They have a cute mascot, so it can't be that bad: https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/lifestyle-buzz/meet-coal... Actually, the tweet quoted in the article is firmly in the "you can't make this $%&/ up" category... | |
| ▲ | cyrusradfar 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | /s this guy gets it. Thank you, finally speaking my language | |
| ▲ | thegreatpeter 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So you believe Microsoft will start opening up coal plants again and not nuclear? | | |
| ▲ | dathinab 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nuclear power is a pain to build and maintain and un-build once it gets to old to reliable run it (the later part is commonly overlooked in cost calculations). It is also a ~50 year investment. This makes it not very attractive for companies and is why most nuclear power is state sub-ventioned. Theoretically the US had something similar to a state bank to help companies to finance exactly such projects, but Trump/DOGE defounded it for publicity reasons which makes it even less likely for private nuclear power plants. Many "we will use nuclear power" statements do rely on mini reactors. But AFIK pretty much all mini reactor projects have ended in dead ends so far. With promised at best working out on paper (and quite often not even there). So my guess is: They will claim they want to use Nuclear and might even intend to do so. But in the end look at their balance sheets and risk calculation and go "nah, lets do coal/gas/oil". There probably will be some single public co-investment into a nuclear power plant which "happens" to also be government sponsored to keep up the pretense. |
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| ▲ | burnt-resistor 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sound and particulate pollution too. |
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| ▲ | analog31 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| While we're at it, water use is another externality. |
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| ▲ | deaux 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Strange downvotes for a relevant question. |