Remix.run Logo
philip1209 a day ago

Oslo has been doing this for years.

I wrote a blog post about my learnings there - "Engineering over enforcement":

> Enforcement philosophy is rooted in the idea that behavior can be controlled by threatening punishments. Engineering philosophy believes that infrastructure can be designed to incentivize desired behavior. When Oslo sought to reduce pedestrian deaths, it turned to engineers.

> [ . . .] Intersections are one small example where philosophies can diverge. But, as I learned in Oslo, engineers have a whole toolkit of methods to make cities safer. Bumping out a curb slows down turning speeds and protects pedestrians. Bike lanes can be safer by being raised above the street instead of relying on a painted barrier. Limiting how far cars can see ahead of them slows them down. Behavior can be designed rather than just enforced, and in aggregate these small changes can make a city safer.

https://www.contraption.co/engineering-over-enforcement/

mooreds a day ago | parent | next [-]

AKA "make the right things easy" and "build sensible defaults" rather than "all the responsibility is the individuals".

philip1209 a day ago | parent | next [-]

there's a reason speedbumps are called "silent policemen"

Scoundreller a day ago | parent | next [-]

I call them SUV/pickup truck sellers or reasonably-sized-vehicle killers.

Alternatively, greenhouse-gas bumps.

Dunno which genius in my town put them on a road riddled with potholes, poorly filled road cuts and marsh-related unevenness.

belorn a day ago | parent | next [-]

Some of the speed bumps-like techniques here in Sweden will do more than just be a bump, it will severely damage the tires if you don't slow down. Curbs that require the driver to make very tight turns for example can be made from fairly sharp stone with an clear edge. A SUV/pickup truck can speed over it, but the trip to the repair shop will make it less fun.

They added some square-like flower pots in the middle of a lovely road next to where I live in order to force drivers to make a double S turn. Those are made from sharp rust-painted steel, and most of the corners are now painted with other peoples car paint. The only way to make it through is to drive at walking speed, which basically everyone do.

philip1209 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We should return to the original double-humped design from Compton:

https://libanswers.wustl.edu/faq/76174?ref=contraption.co

Scoundreller a day ago | parent [-]

Or non-newtonian fluid speedbumps that are soft when hit with light stress and hard when hit with a lot of stress

https://www.jalopnik.com/these-speed-bumps-only-turn-solid-i...

Probably highly temperature dependent or get stabbed with a knife in 2.3 hours depleting its reserve of non-newtonian goo.

busterarm a day ago | parent | prev [-]

the SUV/pickup culture is bad enough here in the South but they place speedbumps aggressively all over the place here.

Like 4" tall ones with no curve so that it absolutely slams the shit out of your small car if you're doing anything over 3mph. And they place them like every 8 feet. If you're in the lifted trucks most people drive here you can't even tell.

ljm a day ago | parent [-]

But if you imported a lifted truck, or another daft US vehicle like the Cybertruck into another country it would probably not be roadworthy and the traffic and speed calming measures are more appropriate.

Bullbars used to be a trend in the UK, for example, until they were band in the late 90s/early 00s because they were fatal to pedestrians.

busterarm 12 hours ago | parent [-]

We also don't have pedestrians here and deer are everywhere -- bullbars are great here.

I once counted over 100 deer on or next to the road during a 20 minute night drive...

fnord77 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

if you live next to one they're not very silent.

rectang a day ago | parent | prev [-]

How depraved, to solve problems without inflicting punishment.

RickS a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is the way. It's maddening that we use the term "speed limit" for what is better understood as a "speed request".

cyberax a day ago | parent | prev [-]

It did not work in the US and resulted only in excess deaths in Seattle, SF, Portland.

The reasons for that are not clear, and urbanists obviously are afraid to investigate it. For fear of being branded "car-brain" and denied the cushy positions. I have a suspicion that in the US the destruction of city streets just _encourages_ reckless behavior from drivers.

Probably it comes down to culture. Finns and Norwegians are just generally more law-abiding.

efebarlas a day ago | parent | next [-]

I want to learn more about “it did not work in the us… excess deaths”

Do you have a link handy for this?

RickS a day ago | parent | next [-]

https://www.elkandelk.com/washington/seattle-car-accident-st...

Since it started in 2015, accidents are down 50%, but deaths up 90%. This analysis leaves a lot to be desired. I didn't see per-capita stats (Seattle had massive growth during a lot of those years), and we don't really enforce traffic laws at all anyway, so IDK what to think without digging in further.

piva00 a day ago | parent | next [-]

How have average car sizes and weight changed in this period of time?

irishcoffee a day ago | parent [-]

You're asking the wrong question. The answer is 10%

The interesting question is power-to-weight, which was (apparently) a direct result of EPA regulations that were enacted in 1975. The below article, which I found from a search engine copying your question and looking at a few results, is an interesting read.

Ignoring all that, the actual question would be: how have car sizes and weights changed _in this region_ during this period of time. Sizes and weights of cars in brasil have little bearing to accidents in the PNW, for example.

https://carbuzz.com/new-vehicles-bigger-heavier-more-powerfu...

piva00 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Ignoring all that, the actual question would be: how have car sizes and weights changed _in this region_ during this period of time. Sizes and weights of cars in brasil have little bearing to accidents in the PNW, for example.

Sorry that I wasn't clear, that's exactly what I meant. I'm curious because it makes absolutely no sense that a safer urban design with separation of grades for cyclists, lowering speeds through design and engineering rather than just updating speed limit signs, would see an increase in deaths. Nowhere else in the world where those were implemented has had that effect, the Netherlands being the prime benchmark for it.

So there's something else at play, average car sizes in the USA are much larger than Europe (and most of the rest of the world), the urban road design is not changed that much: perhaps stroads just got new speed limits and were left at that, instead of narrowing them, adding trees and other obstacles that naturally makes driving slower and more cautious, so on and so forth.

There's also the added issue that American driving standards for a licence are incredibly low since it's kinda required for you to have a driver's licence to exist and have a life in the majority of the country.

irishcoffee 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> There's also the added issue that American driving standards for a licence are incredibly low since it's kinda required for you to have a driver's licence to exist and have a life in the majority of the country.

Relative to what?

efebarlas 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

this is a great thread

it’s hard to isolate the effect size of policy, covid happened, car weights changed, policing may have decreased, US drivers may have driven differently, population size, etc.

brailsafe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The numbers seem a bit alarmist on the fatality front, seems like it would make more sense to account for fatalities as a proportion of accidents overall. In absolute numbers, we're talking tens of deaths and thousands of accidents.

As a visitor (periodically throughout the whole timespan) it's seemed to me like there's massive growth in population in the metro area and more densification inside the Seattle downtown area. Tough to tell what geography this exactly captures. Assuming the numbers are valid, I do wonder if there's a significant demographic or exurb shift, where older drivers became a higher proportion of all drivers where they already lived, and a bunch of others either stopped entirely or moved outside the city boundaries.

If memory serves, I feel like there's also a tendency to accidentally end up committed to a toll bridge crossing by getting stuck on an exit/on ramp off one of the highways, which might make people panic and bail at the last second erratically, but that idea seems a bit farfetched

milch 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I live in Seattle and anecdotally I have seen the number of people running red lights absolutely explode in the last two years. Literally from seeing once or twice pre-COVID to at least one a day. This is not an exaggeration, there's a particular light on my commute that I see at least one driver run per day. My theory is that in an effort to make the intersection safer they adjusted the lights so now there's a period where cars all have a red light while pedestrians are crossing. Meanwhile a certain segment of the population sees all cars in the intersection stopped and decides to slam it. It's a recipe for disaster given there's a middle school down the road from that light...

chneu 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Traffic behavior, in general in the PNW, has gotten way worse. When I say worse I mean selfish. I think since COVID people are just more selfish.

I don't just mean assholes who do what they want. People just don't give a crap about others on the road at all anymore. A lot of folks who probably think they're driving "safe" are just driving selfishly slow and not following the law(super late blinkers, failing to move predictably with traffic, braking in traffic long before entering a turn lane).

It's definitely worse nowadays. I can think of plenty of reasons why. But really I think our society, generally, has started to reward selfish behavior. Or at least not punish it nearly enough to deter it's spread.

convolvatron a day ago | parent | prev [-]

this reference does talk about those stats, but doesn't link in any way to adverse affects of attempting to bring down deaths.

cyberax a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Seattle traffic deaths: https://wtsc.wa.gov/dashboards/fatalities-dashboard/ - select "Seattle" in the city filter and "Pedestrian" in the filter below.

This article has SF pedestrian deaths by year: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2026/pedestrian-fatalit...

For Portland you need to check their police news archives, I couldn't find a dashboard. Here are the data from 2016 and 2024: https://www.portland.gov/transportation/vision-zero/document... (13 pedestrian deaths), https://www.portland.gov/transportation/vision-zero/document... (22 pedestrian deaths). The population growth was 9% between 2016 and 2024.

I don't have an explanation for these increases, and there are no good papers that explore this in depth. I need to write a meta-research paper: "On the lack of research on urbanism-related policy failures".

16 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
Scoundreller a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm confused: what didn't work in Seattle/SF/Portland?

Enforcement didn't work because people won't follow the law anyway or engineering didn't work because people tried to drive through the obstacles or approach them with the same speed and smashed/smooshed more?

fnord77 a day ago | parent | next [-]

SF tried a multi-front approach called "Vision Zero". I think initially deaths went down for a couple years but then ticked back up. No, people aren't (usually) driving through obstacles.

cyberax a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Engineering didn't work. Seattle/SF/Portland vigorously attempted to implement the Zero Vision recommendations. The war-on-cars in other words.

And if the problem was in enforcement in the first place, then why do all the engineering that actively worsens the traffic?

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
fnord77 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

not sure why you're getting downvoted. Traffic deaths in SF definitely went up after "Vision Zero" was implemented

ggggffggggg a day ago | parent [-]

As someone living in SF since before it was implemented, getting the causality right and excluding cofounders seems VERY hard. Things have changed so much here since the early 00s.

cyberax 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We're not talking about 2003 or something. The Zero Vision-related programs started getting serious around 2016. Deep into the iPhone era.

And there are also other facts that point out to Zero Vision being the case. Cities that did not go all-in on this program seem not to have experienced the rise in deaths. I have not researched this in detail, because quantifying the level of road sabotage is tricky. But it definitely _looks_ like it's the case just based on subjective observations.

fnord77 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

the rise of drivers on their phones

jibal a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> It did not work in the US

What didn't?

> and resulted

Correlation is not causation.